what happens to non-christians after death

last SG · 2007-10-04T10:00:34+00:00

I think we have fairly answered the question of the threadstarter. I know there are disagreements. It will be endless to go on about. I don't think we wish t...

Icemoon SG

Have been thinking about this. I realize sometimes Christians have been clouding the issue by playing around with the words 'just' and 'fair'.

Two issues here actually. One, whether our life on Earth is fair. Two, whether God will be fair to us during judgement.

Here is JustDroppingBy's post which shows the two issues clearly:

Christian believe that GOD decides where we are being born right?
So if i am an African, which GOD had decided that i am to be born there,
BUT unfortunately no one told me about GOD and being poor is all i know.
Then one fine day, I died not knowing who GOD is.

Am i going to hell?

Unfair?

Christians have a misguided understanding of justice. Their justice is defined relative to God. God demands justice because of the sins of Man, hence justice need to be served.

But unbelievers and critics are asking just the opposite - justice relative to Man. What happens if justice is not served on Earth and the evil person even obtain a ticket to Heaven? The famous Hitler Conversion Scenario.

Edit: The Christian understanding of justice mostly revolve around God. Seldom do we hear justice for Man. Which is why many Christians can never seem to understand or appreciate the 10 Commandments. They think if you break a commandment, you are sinning against God.

On the other hand, Islam differentiates between the two. Islam has the concept of personal sin and national (or communal .. can't remember) sin. Judaism divides the 10 Commandments into two halves, one half deals with our relationship with God, the other half with mankind.

I read about Judaism and Islam. I think their worldview makes more sense. Here is a summary of what I think about their worldview.

1. Our life on Earth is never fair. God does not deal the same set of cards to everyone, obviously.

2. HOWEVER God is fair in His expectation of us.

3. Justice can never be fully served on Earth. Many of our sins go unnoticed; even the greatest sinners like Hitler never get their just desert.

4. HOWEVER Judgement Day is when justice get served. Even Catholics believe there is purgatory for their own folks.

sillyme SG

Thanks Icemoon. Good sharing.

Icemoon SG

Hey .. remember to read my edited part also. Laughing

sillyme SG

Though this is OOT, I just want to add on. I read a book on the laws given at Mt Sinai. The author commented that these were given to Israel as a nation. It is meant to be kept the Israelites as a community as opposed to an individual.

stupidissmart SG

How can god be just if he is not fair Rolling Eyes The synonyms for "righteous" and "just" r fair.

Just think about it, if a person of religion A kill a person the judge give a death sentence while another person with religion B kill a person and the judge give a fine of $100. Can the judge claims he is "just" or "righteous" ? It appears contradictory.

Having double standard and focusing on the type of person instead of his deeds is unjust, unfair and not righteous.

gasband SG

God is of cos not fair! If he is fair, he would have wipe us all out, since we all have done so many terrible things in this world. if he is fair, he would not have sent his son to die for us, he would have send his son to take our lives, since we all deserve to die for our sins.

BUT HE DID NOT. HE IS NOT FAIR.

Spnw07 SG

Hmm, interesting points raised in comparison to 3 different religions.

My personal experience so far is that Christianity is basically what Icemoon has understood.

vince69 SG

not really..

what if for this crime, the penalty is $1,000,000 fine
in Regl-A case, fine $1,000,000, cannot pay.... Go to Jail
in Regl-B case, fine $1,000,000, cannot pay also ... but someone (says JC) else paid for him on his behalf.... Regl-B walks away free.

Justice done? yes... the fine was paid
Fair? to Regl-A, maybe not, why this guy pay for Regl-B not pay for me har?

how about this?
what if the guy JC gave a $1,000,000 cash cheque to both?
Regl-B used it to pay the penalty and walks free
Regl-A says, where got free lunch one... tore the cheque up... go to Jail..
now, can he says... why Regl-B can walks away free, why I have to go jail? JC is a bigot... not fair, Regl-B have to go jail with me!

Justice is absolute... broke the law, pay the price
Fairness is subjective... depends on from whose point of view you are talking about, the victim, the aggressor or the bystander?
Smile

stupidissmart SG

what if for this crime, the penalty is $1,000,000 fine
in Regl-A case, fine $1,000,000, cannot pay.... Go to Jail
in Regl-B case, fine $1,000,000, cannot pay also ... but someone (says JC) else paid for him on his behalf.... Regl-B walks away free.

If there is tis guy tat keep paying for everyone punishment, then u have to agree tat tis guy is encouraging people to commit offences. The whole system of punishment and deterent is a joke.

how about this?
what if the guy JC gave a $1,000,000 cash cheque to both?
Regl-B used it to pay the penalty and walks free
Regl-A says, where got free lunch one... tore the cheque up... go to Jail..
now, can he says... why Regl-B can walks away free, why I have to go jail? JC is a bigot... not fair, Regl-B have to go jail with me!

This guy who pay for the person require u to pay a price. And tat is renounce your old religion. (u must be christian and tat means renounce your previous religion) If tat happens to u, will u take tis blatant bribe ? Imagine tis rich person is from religion A and he require u to renounce christianity to get away with the fine. Will u do it ?

Justice is absolute... broke the law, pay the price
Fairness is subjective... depends on from whose point of view you are talking about, the victim, the aggressor or the bystander?

Fairness is not subjective. I think u need to define wat do u mean by tat.

The agressor can be from any race and religion and it is only the deed tat determines the amount of punishment. Tat makes it fair. The victim get back justice as the agressor is punished, the aggressor is punished and the bystander read about the case. Why will it depend on whose view it is from ?

Spnw07 SG

If there is tis guy tat keep paying for everyone punishment, then u have to agree tat tis guy is encouraging people to commit offences. The whole system of punishment and deterent is a joke.

Imagine tis rich person is from religion A and he require u to renounce christianity to get away with the fine. Will u do it ?

I have the above doubts too.

vince69 SG

one man stole some food from a shop and gave them to the poor.
He was caught and brought before the judge.

This man... he committed stealing, before the court of law, he is guilty.

This man... was sentence to pay a hefty fine, failure to pay will result in him being throw into Jail. (Justice).

To the poor that he fed, this is not fair, he only steal because he wants to feed them. To the man (the 'aggressor', since he broke the law), this is not fair, he is doing a good deed.

On the other hand, if the judge says, ok lah, since he is doing good, just a verbal warning will do...
To the poor, this is fair. To the man, this is fair. To the shop keeper/owner ('Victim')whose goods he had stolen, this is not fair.

on the outside, there will be kaypo people around, some will side the man/the poor and say warning is fair, ... those that side the shop owner, and say, he broke law, heavy sentence is fair....

see... how subjective it can become.... different people have different POV, different expectation, when their expectation are met, its fair. when not being met, its not fair; the one whose cause is uphold, its fair, the one who suffer losses, its not fair. .... its called... being Human, nothing to do with religion, just being human.

vince69 SG

Then make the decision and live with the decision. to each his own decision.

To take or not to take, a decision each have to make.

chinese have a saying... if the cow refused to drink water, one cannot press its head down.

*edit.... me failed chinese translation Embarassed

stupidissmart SG

I think u r confusing with "fair". If he want to feed the poor, he should pay for himself and not steal from others. He try to be generous using other people money and property and he should be punished. To the person who get caught, it is fair because he know the punishment of theft is jail. To the poor, they should feel it is fair too because the punishment for theft is jail. To the shopowner or watever, it is fair too because he commit theft and he deserve jail.

Furthermore, there is such a thing as litigation/mitigation. If there is compelling reason for the person to commit a crime, he will get a lighter sentence.

However for your case, 2 people, commit exactly the same crime with the same intention, but get different sentence because their religion or race differs. Tat is not fair.

stupidissmart SG

So wat is your decision then ? U will not renounce christianity right ?

sillyme SG

Uh, if the analogy is not fully good, then it very difficult to discuss about it.

Just let it be lah.

vince69 SG

still on religion... put it aside lah... not into religion at all...

2 person commit the same crime, same fine amount.
one have a rich father to pay for him, one no rich father pay for him, can?

in your first para, you are thinking from a third party point of view, from what you think they should feel and how they should see things... human nature not like this one... everyone who get punishment will think its excessive and not fair. everyone whose are victimised, will think the punishment is not harsh enough and its not fair. like I say, this is call human nature... something you will read about when studing Human social behaviour.

different people sees things differently, from a different perpective with different interpretation, different emotion, this is what makes us human, this is what makes us interesting.

vince69 SG

you are correct, I will not renounce Christ, my saviour, and I am willing to pay the price for my decision.

ask you back... what is your decision?

stupidissmart SG

2 person commit the same crime, same fine amount.
one have a rich father to pay for him, one no rich father pay for him, can?

in your first para, you are thinking from a third party point of view, from what you think they should feel and how they should see things... human nature not like this one... everyone who get punishment will think its excessive and not fair. everyone whose are victimised, will think the punishment is not harsh enough and its not fair. like I say, this is call human nature... something you will read about when studing Human social behaviour.

different people sees things differently, from a different perpective with different interpretation, different emotion, this is what makes us human, this is what makes us interesting.

Fairness is important before one can mete out justice. If u claim tat fairness is subjective, then righteous is also subjective since righteous does not exist if there is no fairness. I can also give an example tat righteous is subjective too when the christians crusaders claimed they r righteous when they slaughter people from other religion. So fairness and justice does not exist and so god still cannot be fair or just ?

Furthermore, fairness is giving punishment based on deeds and not on race/religion. If they cannot practise tis fairness, the judge is not just. U just keep avoiding tis point.

stupidissmart SG

you are correct, I will not renounce Christ, my saviour, and I am willing to pay the price for my decision.

Then u should start pondering why is the system so ridiculous as to force people to convert yet without giving more clues (compared with other religion) it is right

ask you back... what is your decision?

If there is such a thing and if I can save 1 million, I will convert to believe anything. I am not as stupid as reject help if it is true. However the system is so absupt tat I find it unbelievable.

vince69 SG

your anology on righteousness (ie. doing the right things, the right way, the right intention, the right standing... every maner that is right everytime) being subjective, as in from whose point of view that its right, is reasonable.
To the christians crusaders, its the right thing to do, to their victims, they are monstors, murderer deserved nothing less than eternal torture in hell.

I do disagree that Fairness is important before one can mete out Justice. However, I will say, Decernment and Wisdom are important before one can mete out Justice.

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