Why are Jews God chosen people?

last SG · 2007-05-11T16:09:45+00:00

Agreed. Perhaps it is more meaningful to ask about the Church's role in the event.

Icemoon SG

pwnz0r,

Christians often miss the point when they impose their belief system onto other faiths.

http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs.htm

Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism has no official creed or universal doctrinal requirements for membership. In general, a person can be considered "Jewish" whether he adheres to a complete system of beliefs about God and the afterlife, holds only a few simple beliefs that give meaning to ritual, or even (at least in liberal Judaism) does not believe in God at all.

This diversity in Jewish belief arises in part because actions (good deeds and the mitzvot), not beliefs, are the most important aspect of Jewish religious life. In addition, the term "Jewish" can be used to describe a race and a culture rather than a religion, so some who identify themselves as Jewish may have little interest in the beliefs and practices associated with the religion of Judaism.

Skibi SG

Originally posted by Icemoon:
They are also waiting for a saviour. But Jesus did not fit the description of that saviour.

The Jews in general have long since passed the point of no return with regards to their covenant the moment they cruxified the very savior they had been waiting for.

It is important to realise that no return does not mean that God is unwilling to pardon them, but rather that they are unwilling to repent.

The sack of Jerusalem by Rome, and later the mass genocide of the Jews by Hitler are fitting examples of their unrepentance. They have paid the price in blood and will continue to pay because God is unable to protect those who break the covenant. Like everyone else, the door to salvation determined by the covenant is still open to them. The question is... will they accept it? Or will they fill their hearts and minds with hate and revenge thus rejecting the savior till the bitter end?

Matthew 27:22-25 NIV
22"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.
They all answered, "Crucify him!"

23"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility! "

25All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"

Icemoon SG

Are you done?

Now my turn. Laughing

Here's another difficult question for Christians - if Jews did not crucify Jesus, where is your salvation? Rolling Eyes

Remember .. no calvary -> price for your sins not paid -> no salvation.

Skibi SG

Originally posted by Icemoon:
Here's another difficult question for Christians - if Jews did not crucify Jesus, where is your salvation?

Remember .. no calvary -> price for your sins not paid -> no salvation.

Petitio principii argument.

Icemoon SG

You mean you or me?

Should be you lah .. cos you are the one making an argument.

What I did was more akin to reductio ad absurdum. Laughing

Skibi SG

On the surface, the underlined portion is phrased like an apagogical argument. However your argument is invalid as you cannot prove by contradiction that there is no salvation if Jesus hadn't been cruxified. All things are possible thru the wisdom and power of God. You are merely leading the audience as the second phrased shows very clearly.

Icemoon SG

No .. what I tried to prove by contradiction is that the Jews were unrepentant not by choice but by the will of God. Because you said:

The Jews in general have long since passed the point of no return with regards to their covenant the moment they cruxified the very savior they had been waiting for.

If Jesus did not go through the passion leading to the crucification, there will be no salvation. According to Christians, there are verses in the OT that hints about the passion and calvary.

Here is another contradicton .. all thanks to you. You maintain that all things are possible with God, but God CANNOT LIE. Which means He cannot contradict what the bible said because the bible is from God.

Icemoon SG

Skibi, your argument is way off liao.

'cos somewhere in the NT .. it is written that the Jews were blinded so that the gentiles can receive salvation.

so they didn't have a choice at all.

pwnz0r SG

i think God has created the situation as such.

they have declared that the crucificion is on the blood of their children.

the only way is to get by this is by repentance, as such that is mentioned previously.

the issue is not who to blame on that day of crucificion, but rather will the Jews continually reject Jesus just like that day of Calvary or will they accept that Jesus is the only way.

ben1xy SG

From a very skewed lens, this is how i see it.

The Jews were definitely played a part in Salvation as like you pointed out; if they didn't crucify Christ, there would be no salvation.

So there's no argument there.

Can they be blamed? This is subjective (they were mde not to see). However, they did crucify an innocent man (given that they didn't see Jesus as the saviour).

But, and this is where my arguments kicks in, they didn't repent after that. If they did, there would be no issue. Instead they chose to see what they wanted to see. That Jesus was not the Messiah, but a heretic? So in this sense, God did offer them an avenue for repentence. It's just that they did not take it up.

And, if we were to put things in a historical context, in the Acts, we saw the Resurrection and Jesus walking among his disciples. Moreover, the Apostles were filled with the spirit after the Ascension and they performed maasive amount of works and miracles. But still, they chose not to see.

We know that the Jews were blinded. But we do not know where that blindness ends? (this is guess work) It might have ended after the resurrection took place. That's why we saw the many conversions in Acts.

laoda99 SG

where har?

ben1xy SG

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijahhow he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[b] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c]

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Skibi SG

You forgot to include this(from the same chapter/paragraph):

Romans 11:12 NIV
But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

God never meant for Jews to be blinded. They blinded themselves thru their greed, hate, envy and thirst for revenge. It is by the wisdom and power of God that good will triumph over evil turning misfortune into blessings for others. Paul laments with regret that if the Jews had been loyal to God the blessings produced would have been so much more.

Thus instead of sharing the blessings along with the Gentiles, the Jews have to pay for their crimes...in blood. This is the lament and regret of Paul the Apostle.

Icemoon SG

1. They did not crucify an innocent man. Jesus was indeed guilty of blasphemy according to the law of Moses.

2. To be fair, some Jews did convert in Acts, as did the pagans, i.e. god-fearing Greeks.

And here comes my favourite part - is the NT historical context corroborated by secular history? If you want to play fair, all Jews in the diaspora had to see the miracles. The NT did not claim that, neither did secular history. There is scant mention of the apostles [and their miracles] outside the NT.

And my usual comparison - when God gave the Torah, the whole Israel was at Sinai. This, the OT affirms. When Jesus and the apostles performed miracles, did the whole Jewish nation see it?

Icemoon SG

I'd add that if God did boom his voice to the Pharisees to acknowledge Jesus Christ, this spectacular event would not go unnoticed by the Sanhedrin, the religious governing body at that time.

I have not read my Old Testament thoroughly, but I don't remember God booming His voice to the people. This is a very very rare event. God usually communicates via the prophets.

Icemoon SG

So god never meant? He instigated? Facilitated? Abetted? Willed?
Read the verses carefully:

Romans 11

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]

Skibi, there is no need to absolve god of any responsibility.

ben1xy SG

the crucifixion was carried out by the Romans. The Jews forced it on Pilate. Power and politics were at play there. I'm sure you can see that right? Pilate was afraid of angering them, though he could find nothing wrong.

yup this i agree. This falls in tandem with what i was saying... repentence

hmm. ok then, i will take back the part on history bit. I will change it to contextual factors. Does this better suit the argument?

Well, my argument would be this then. I've never seen the resurrection. But yet, i believe. We do know that the early Christians were chastised and persecuted and there even the Roman empire got a tad worried. Based on this, is it fair for me to say that.. if they didn't see; they would have heard about it? Esp. with the apostles going around preaching?

I can't see the linkage. God doesn't owe salvation to anyone. So what if the whole Isreal was at sinai? And when Jesus and the Apostles performed miracles, the whole nation wasn't there. The were prophcies in the OT telling of the coming and the things that he would do.

Finally, there was the resurrection and that to me would be the clearest indication.

ben1xy SG

was this for me? i dun quite catch this part Mr. Green

Icemoon SG

If you study patristics, you will not find the Apostolic Fathers any friendly to the Jews.

If you arrange the gospels chronologically, you will find anti semite contents more rampant and the allegations more vile from Mark to John.

I am saying this behind an objective pair of lens.

davidche SG

quote:
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Originally posted by Icemoon:

1. They did not crucify an innocent man. Jesus was indeed guilty of blasphemy according to the law of Moses.
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the crucifixion was carried out by the Romans. The Jews forced it on Pilate. Power and politics were at play there. I'm sure you can see that right? Pilate was afraid of angering them, though he could find nothing wrong.

perhaps if Jesus is a 'crazy' man, he would be justified by the law. IMO, pilate saw Jesus as a crazy man, thus, he could not find any wrong in him.

But if the perspective is that Jesus was not crazy, then Jesus is indeed guilty of blasphemy.

Can understand??

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