Opinions of atheism

last SG · 2006-09-08T10:07:04+00:00

Is big bang rational? Big bang contridicts with science. Science exists becos the earth follows a pattern or system. If any elemets and energy can bang tog...

ben1xy SG

no no. not that Kaister. I mean "consciousness". I spoke to this Lecturer the other day over lunch. He teaches physics and Science & religion. He told me the biggest problem in the explanation of Science lie in "consciousness" or aware of "being". In the past Descrates (sp) thought consciouness to lie in the pineal gland, but i think that has been disproofed. What i am interested in is how Aetheist reconcile their world view with this "consciousness".

stupidissmart SG

Though it is not addressed to me, I still have to say it out my personal opinion tat I do not fully understand wat u r trying to say here. Can elaborate ? Can I assume u r trying to ask physically where in our brain is our conscienceness located or u r trying to ask why do men have consciencesness ? If u r asking the latter, then I can say tat in science, "why" is not a good question to us because there is never a moltive for things to happened in such a way. It is like asking why is there water or fire or air. Why don't u try to answer why is there water from a christian perspective ?

kaister SG

Deleted – Double post.

ben1xy SG

no no, not conscience. consciousness. It's one of the pivotal arguements in science and religion that has not been well addressed. that's why i am bringing it up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

could u look at the URL and then express your views. My apologies for not posting it here. it's really too long.

The arguements centers around dualism and monolism. Or the classic ghost in the machine arguement.

kaister SG

Oh my bad... Laughing I thought you meant moral consciousness.

To answer for this, we would need to first define consciousness. "Consciousness is a quality of the mind generally regarded to comprise qualities such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one's environment."(Wikied)

Most atheists would agree that consciousness is not unique in humans. Dolphins and other high-level animals also displayed consciousness.

This can be explained using scientific approach. Every emotion, feeling and thought process that we experience, are but a series of complex electrical signals handled by our brain, not just the pineal gland.

Take for example the corpus callosum (communicating bridge between two cerebral hemispheres). If you cut it, the 2 brains will not be able to communicate with each other. They will not be able to receive perceptive signals from either sides of the body. This effectively creates '2 consciousness' , if you will, in the same physical body.

Then again, neurology is still pretty much at it's infantile stage and is very underdeveloped. Being no subject matter expert, this is the best explanation I can offer you now.

ben1xy SG

cool. u've hit the nail. Very Happy

just the process of articulating the concept of consciousness gives most people headaches.

Moving on, being Atheist, you would probably subscribe to evolution? or am i mistaken? my apolgies if i am assuming too much. Personally, i am more towards theistic evolution (i think it's only fair i present my case first). I find the theory of evolution lacking in describing consciousness. maybe u can provide me with some insights?

kaister SG

Blame my late nights... now then I understand what you were asking for. Conscience. Ignore my previous blabbering. Sorry for making you read thru all those.

Evolution DO explain conscience, although it's a very bad explanation.

Evolution focuses on survival of species, not individuals. That's why individuals in a species can compete but the species advances. It is explained that individuals with conscience helps advancement of the whole species. By having a conscience and being good, the species can hope to reduce conflicts, promoting its survival.

Take for example altruism. Self-sacrifice. A stranger might sacrifice himself for a boy crossing the road and about to be hit by a car. It's an act of conscience - doing the right thing, however, it would mean the death of him and not getting his genes in the gene pool.

However, such a behaviour allows the boy to survive, which may prompt similar social behaviours, hereby aiding in the survival of human youths as a whole.

It's not the best explanation but it's the best evolution got.

nomood SG

when you're talking about conciousness, are you talking about conciousness in terms of how bacteria has no perceivable thoughts, or are you talking about humans as a sentinal being kind of concious?

eg: how did we evolve from bacteria to a human with a concious thought?

OR

eg: why are humans the only species to posses the ability to think conciously?

ben1xy SG

Hi nomood. the sentinel category.

kaister SG

Wah... I'm so confused now...

Okie for atheist's explanation on conscience, look at altruism example above. For explanation on consciousness, look at corpus callosum example even further above.

ben1xy SG

no worries. same thing here on my side .. thankfully, workload is starting to clear up.

Hmm, interesting. i have always thought of evolution to only explain the physical aspects. Consciousness is an abstract construct (or at least i think so). Does evolution therefore explain emotions? And how would mutation, natural selection pass on something that is not readily passable through our genes? Or am i outdated and new research has discovered the existence of a "emotion" gene?

ben1xy SG

no no. dun worry. u're on the right track i think. That's why i posited earlier that the debates on consciousness has not been well constructed. I'm sure we will make good headway here. Mr. Green

kaister SG

This is where the explanation could take days... Laughing

Shortly put, we've already discovered where emotional parts of our brain is. You put an electrical signal thru those bits, you elicit the emotion you want. (Sad to say this was done on monkeys and some humans in science's early days) And all parts of our body were coded by genes. We've not exactly mapped out the functions of all the genes but we're sure not far from it.

As to how emotions are passed down, it's all speculation. Emotions must have some evolutionary advantage. A mother would feel sad if she loses her child, therefore she would do all she could to protect her child to stop those emotions.

Animals have emotions too. They are known to cry prior to their deaths. It's usually a misconception that only humans have emotions. It seems that way cos' we can express our emotions better.

kaister SG

Plus, have you seen the matrix? Every emotion and sensation that you feel is merely an electrical signal, expressed by neurons, which were coded by genes.

It's hard to believe but it's an exciting field that would spark more debates on how we use that info.

nomood SG

Wink that's where it starts to go very vague. To my knowledge, nobody is sure why humans have evolved beyond what was needed for survival.

"sentinality" is really one aspect in which science has problem defining. in the context of evolution however, if we were to take it as anything beyond survival instincts, there are other creatures which may be considered sentinal. eg: elephant herds have been known to divide into societies, and it has also been observed that the matriarch of an elephant herd may pay respects to a deceased matriach of another herd. ie: the creation of a basic feudal society.

I hope that answers the question. Wink

stupidissmart SG

Consciousness or conscience ? My thinking is tat conscienceness is developed when men learn to live together. Helping another teammate when he is in trouble make the team stronger and help themselves survive better in the long run and thus make them more fitter to survive. Emotions help survival too since "sadness" and "happiness" make them strive to live better. "sadness" may arise from pain so tat u will not do an action tat will hurt your body and "happiness" when u find food so u can survive better. Emotion get richer as beings evolved.

kaister SG

In evolution, they attempt to explain everything as having a use in survival.

Formation of a social group will aid in survival. A group of elephants survive better than a single, loner elephant. Development of a basic feudal society allows command and control by a dominant male, which is always beneficial in a group setting.

I know these explanations are sketchy and I've to admit there's no hard evidence on these yet.

nomood SG

yes, but survival only on a very primary level. Lions band together to hunt, but you don't see them paying each other respects, greeting one another ya?

sentinal thinking and feelings are the things which supposedly transcends survival, which, admittedly is really really difficult to mess with.

ben1xy SG

haha. i can't believe i just dug this big hole. ok then, to my knowledge emotions are but 1 component of consciousness. And the emotions that are elicited cannot be exactly placed on what part of the brain, but many different areas. So i guess its still one big grey area. Neutral nothing we can do abt that.

Emotions fit well with the Jewish and Catholic explanation with the person having a soul, body and spirit. Extrapolating, i could say that it's the soul that enables humans n animals to emote.

-edit-
i forgot to mentioned that animals ave soul and body according to Jewish and Catholic thought

ben1xy SG

so u reckon emotions could be programmed via algorithms and the likes? but what about consciousness and self identity? would algorithms be able to do that?

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