Judaism have NO problem with Satan (A biblical view)

last SG · 2006-10-27T14:36:58+00:00

Aiyah, want to talk to him logically? Puke blood ah.

Icemoon SG

Actually the reply only mention about man turning away from evil, there is no suggestion that god created evil in order to bring out the virtue of man.

Wait .. don't quote some other biblical verse to challenge me first! Laughing We need to understand what exactly is this evil. So tell me, what do you understand by evil?

Job is not the only suffering in the world. Wat did he really yield except boosting god ego ?

Was God's ego boosted? From what I understand, Job did not went down on his knees to thank God for all the suffering leh. He did not say the equivalent of wan sui wan sui wan wan sui to a king sitting on the throne leh. Laughing

However the "suffer" tat satan inflict and the whole problem we r talking is suffering tat is inflicted. No one volunteer for tis kind of act of god but they just inflict it out for no-one-know wat reason.

So, in your opinion, all suffering comes from God? If you think so, then according to the fate of Job, people who suffer should triumph in the end. Maybe have more cars, more houses and more wives. Laughing

stupidissmart SG

Actually the reply only mention about man turning away from evil, there is no suggestion that god created evil in order to bring out the virtue of man.

Wait .. don't quote some other biblical verse to challenge me first! We need to understand what exactly is this evil. So tell me, what do you understand by evil?

This is the Almighty's divine sovereign plan for creation: It is through man's personal decision to turn away from evil and choose good that virtue can be attaine

Com'on, tat statement becomes senseless if it does not means god create evil. I mean, if evil is already here which is not up to god, then god didn't really make any "planning" nor "action". It is like a statement

Men ingenious plan is a sun tat create the energy needed to survive.

But men did not make the sun Rolling Eyes This is not a plan unless they wanna make a second sun. In your statement, if evil exist which is not up to god, then there is no god plan and no god action in there and the statement is simply trying to console themselves over the problem.

Wat is evil ? The opposite of good lor

It proves job is loyal to god to the point much more than wan wui wan sui wan wan sui. Heck he openly sing and praise god isn't it ? Otherwise why is job tortured ? If u do not agree with me then please offer the reason stated in the bible why job is tortured

So, in your opinion, all suffering comes from God? If you think so, then according to the fate of Job, people who suffer should triumph in the end. Maybe have more cars, more houses and more wives

There r christian who believe tat everything about u and your life is already plan by god from the start. In tat case god did allow suffering to occur. All suffering did not triumph, even in the story of job, job's family also suffer death by they never get any "triumph" as stated in the bible.

breytonhartge SG

hey... only just started this way of thinking a while ago... give me some time... the greek way of thinking takes a while to shake... Embarassed

no not trying to siam responsibility... kaister and I discussed this already. Wink

Icy, your point is taken and I will see what I can do to be more engaging...

that is why maybe you should come help?? Very Happy

Icemoon SG

It proves job is loyal to god to the point much more than wan wui wan sui wan wan sui. Heck he openly sing and praise god isn't it ?

Then why did God snap? (Job 40)

1 The LORD said to Job:

2 "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!"

I think God's ego must be hurt by something right? Laughing

All suffering did not triumph, even in the story of job, job's family also suffer death by they never get any "triumph" as stated in the bible.

Hmm .. this is a knotty problem. Neutral

stupidissmart SG

How can evil be good when it is defined as opposite of good ? If evil is good, then wat is not good ? And your only explanation is tat god says it is "good" Rolling Eyes There is such a phrase, so ? There r people who do not believe god create evil. God in the bible also say tat satan rebel against god and u also don't take it. God also says tat he create everything in 6 days and it is proven to be more. It may simply good for himself only since he set up the stage to watch the show. Maybe it is good since he don't face the problem of evil himself. U need to explain how can "evil" be "good". If "evil" can be "good", then tat is not really evil afterall.

I am still waiting for the answer why does god torture job as stated in the bible.

Icemoon SG

woo .. you are over-powering me with so many questions. Laughing

Actually God did not create evil, this one I also agree. In Judaism, evil is not a intrinsic attribute, it is more like a consequence of your free-will. It is like suffering is the consequence of our actions. The thing Judaism disagrees with Christianity is that the "source" for causing evil was already present during creation. Christians refuse to acknowledge the "source" as present during creation, they say they dunno where this "source" comes from.

Where, in the Old Testament, did God say satan rebelled against Him?

I can reconcile the 6 days with xx billion years in science. While my belief may not be most theologically correct, I find no glaring contradiction in it. So it is logical to me.

Icemoon SG

dun worry la .. me not trying to siam your question. Laughing

Actually did God torture Job? While God permitted Job to be tortured, it is not the same as saying God tortured Job.

As to why God allow Job to be tortured .. well I haven't study yet. So can I say I dunno? Mr. Green

Maybe when I know liao I tell you?

stupidissmart SG

Actually God did not create evil, this one I also agree. In Judaism, evil is not a intrinsic attribute, it is more like a consequence of your free-will. It is like suffering is the consequence of our actions. The thing Judaism disagrees with Christianity is that the "source" for causing evil was already present during creation. Christians refuse to acknowledge the "source" as present during creation, they say they dunno where this "source" comes from.

Tis bring out more questions. First the original question.

This is the Almighty's divine sovereign plan for creation: It is through man's personal decision to turn away from evil and choose good that virtue can be attaine

How do god plan if he is not involved in the action ? After I asked the question u

The reason I say God did not create evil is because it is very misleading

I think the misleading portion is your statement above... it do give the idea u think god create evil.

Next, isn't god omnipotent ? Why can't he remove evil ? Why can't we have free will without evil, much like him ? If free will must be together with evil and sin, then wat does god want men to be ? No free will and no sin or got free will and sin ?

Wat is adam before he eat the fruit ? Does he have free will ? If he have free will, then he should surely sin, and sin exists before the fall of men. If he does not have free will, why is he blamed for eating the fruit of wisdom ? He can't choose his action if he does not have free will isn't it ? If he has free will and not sin, then why is there evil in tis world ? Free will is not an answer for sinning because they r mutually independent and having free will does not equate to sinning, much like adam have free will and not sin.

Where, in the Old Testament, did God say satan rebelled against Him?

I say bible, not OT. R u more jewish than christian ?

I can reconcile the 6 days with xx billion years in science. While my belief may not be most theologically correct, I find no glaring contradiction in it. So it is logical to me.

U say it yourself, theologically incorrect. U r really throwing away the word "days" and replace with "billions of years". Why don't u replace the word god say it is "good" with "ok" ? U can really be creative and alter a lot of words to suit your preference u know

Actually did God torture Job? While God permitted Job to be tortured, it is not the same as saying God tortured Job.

U r really twisting the words. Satan is a servant to god according to u. Satan ask if job should be tested more to prove his loyalty which god answer yes. Then u say he is not torturing job ? Anyway, no matter how u twist the lines, u can't avoid the responsibility tat job torture have a direct link with god

As to why God allow Job to be tortured .. well I haven't study yet. So can I say I dunno?

Well the story of job in the bible is only some lines (in fact some of your reply r longer than the book of job Mr. Green ). I am pretty sure u have read it before. Why don't u say wat u felt job was tortured for ? I always answer watever question u ask, why don't u try and answer tis one

Icemoon SG

Haha .. I also blur liao. Why not you teach me how to express my thoughts?

I wanted to say something like .. God created the source of evil, which isn't evil by itself, but which can lead to evil actions.

Next, isn't god omnipotent ? Why can't he remove evil ? Why can't we have free will without evil, much like him ? If free will must be together with evil and sin, then wat does god want men to be ? No free will and no sin or got free will and sin ?

Because the source of evil can be useful in other ways.

Wat is adam before he eat the fruit ? Does he have free will ? If he have free will, then he should surely sin, and sin exists before the fall of men. If he does not have free will, why is he blamed for eating the fruit of wisdom ? He can't choose his action if he does not have free will isn't it ? If he has free will and not sin, then why is there evil in tis world ? Free will is not an answer for sinning because they r mutually independent and having free will does not equate to sinning, much like adam have free will and not sin.

If you use the Christian mentality to analyze .. you only make yourself more confused. Last time I analyzed using Christian mentality I nearly went crazy .. because in EH got one person asked when did sin or evil first enter into Eve. Mr. Green

I say bible, not OT. R u more jewish than christian ?

I suppose you can say that. Neutral

Duh .. I never said theologically incorrect .. where you got that from?

And I never replace with billions of years. There are many ways you can avoid the contradiction faced by the creationists. For example, you can read it as poetry. It is not theologically incorrect to read it as poetry mah.

God answered yes but God didnt instruct Satan how to torture Job right? Laughing

If you are confused (like me sometimes), can always fall back on the divine prosecutor analogy. You remember what is it?

Well the story of job in the bible is only some lines (in fact some of your reply r longer than the book of job ). I am pretty sure u have read it before. Why don't u say wat u felt job was tortured for ? I always answer watever question u ask, why don't u try and answer tis one

You siao ah .. the book of Job is more than 40 chapters leh!!

Furthermore some have called it the greatest piece of literature .. you think so easy to understand ah? Mr. Green

I know what I know and what I dunno. If I dunno .. then I'll admit. I think it is not shameful to admit you dunno.

stupidissmart SG

Tat is impossible to express since god created the source of evil, and it isn't evil runs into contradiction. It is like I don't know how to express the idea John is fat who isn't fat.

Because the source of evil can be useful in other ways.

name me how

So I suppose u have the answer to it now since u don't go crazy now. Wat is the answer ?

Duh .. I never said theologically incorrect .. where you got that from?

I got it from

While my belief may not be most theologically correct,

And I never replace with billions of years. There are many ways you can avoid the contradiction faced by the creationists. For example, you can read it as poetry. It is not theologically incorrect to read it as poetry mah.

On the same page god says he create everything. So tat is poetry too ?

God answered yes but God didnt instruct Satan how to torture Job right?

Com'on man Laughing God is omniscience and make satan. How can he don't know

You siao ah .. the book of Job is more than 40 chapters leh!!

Furthermore some have called it the greatest piece of literature .. you think so easy to understand ah?

I know what I know and what I dunno. If I dunno .. then I'll admit. I think it is not shameful to admit you dunno.

1. U read the book ?
2. U must have some impression of it
3. Wat is your impression of why job is tortured ?

It is not shameful to admit u dun know. But it is cowardly not to even dare express your own personal opinion on a book u read. I am not asking for the standard answer, i am just asking your own interpretation. Is tat so hard ?

Icemoon SG

Impossible to express then how?

Yay .. dun need to explain to you liao. Laughing

So I suppose u have the answer to it now since u don't go crazy now. Wat is the answer ?

I got it from

While my belief may not be most theologically correct,

On the same page god says he create everything. So tat is poetry too ?

Com'on man God is omniscience and make satan. How can he don't know

1. YES and NO.
2. Of course.
3. I haven't read enough to form a conclusion.

stupidissmart SG

Impossible to express then how?

Yay .. dun need to explain to you liao.

If u don't wanna explain, it is really fine u know Laughing

A quick analogy - water can push the boat but can also sink it. So is water evil? Remember God used water to flood everyone to dead wor.

Water is not evil, but flooding and destruction of property is. Ship tat goes across water is not evil, but ships sinking and people die is. Water is water, evil is evil. U don't put evil as water and show how water can be good

The answer (which I find satisfying so far) is that there wasn't any independent source of evil that entered into Eve. The serpent did not miraculously transfer evil to Eve .. the serpent only triggered what was already in Eve all along .. the "source".

There are still some gaps in my understanding, but at least I never go crazy this time

There r really many gaps in your theory. U still have not answer whether god create evil or not

This is not the same as saying it is theologically incorrect

So u saying it is "not theologically correct" is not equal to saying it is "theologically incorrect". Ok, let the readers judged themselves then

I believe He created everything, but the manner described by the text could be poetic? I dunno .. just throwing some suggestion

Sounds like picking and choosing watever u like to believe

He dun know what?

God is linked to job being tortured. True or not ?

1. YES and NO.

U never read job in your understood language before ? Wat do u mean by yes and no ?

2. Of course.
3. I haven't read enough to form a conclusion

U read through it once at least once ? Isn't tat enough to have an impression ? Just say out your impression

Icemoon SG

Isn't flood just a lot of water? Rolling Eyes

You can have a lot of water rushing at great speed to generate energy from a dam .. how about this? On the other hand, the same water rushing at same speed over your house will demolish it. So at the end it depends on how the water is used, isn't it?

If you are confused ..then just think of the chinese saying roughly translated as water can float a ship but can also sink it.

So u saying it is "not theologically correct" is not equal to saying it is "theologically incorrect". Ok, let the readers judged themselves then

Crazy .. what I said (and you quoted) was - While my belief may not be most theologically correct.

Sounds like picking and choosing watever u like to believe

Of course .. you got to choose the most sensible right? If you are given a choice between science and tooth fairies .. you will choose to believe in science right! Laughing

God is linked to job being tortured. True or not ?

He allowed it to happen, yes.

U never read job in your understood language before ? Wat do u mean by yes and no ?

Yes because I have read some parts of it .. No because I never read the whole book.

U read through it once at least once ? Isn't tat enough to have an impression ? Just say out your impression

Not even once.

stupidissmart SG

Isn't flood just a lot of water?

You can have a lot of water rushing at great speed to generate energy from a dam .. how about this? On the other hand, the same water rushing at same speed over your house will demolish it. So at the end it depends on how the water is used, isn't it?

If you are confused ..then just think of the chinese saying roughly translated as water can float a ship but can also sink it.

Flood is a lot of water, but it is really a medium tat allow evil to achieve its purpose. Water running in dynamo is good, and no elements of evil is in it. But evil is present when misfortune happens such as destroying house from a broken dam. As said, water is water, evil is evil. U can't generalise tat water must either be evil or good, then treat water as evil when it is just water

Let me give an example

Car can travel with velocity. Car can be stationary. So does tat means having velocity is stationary ?

Crazy .. what I said (and you quoted) was - While my belief may not be most theologically correct.

Let the readers judged themselves then

Of course .. you got to choose the most sensible right? If you are given a choice between science and tooth fairies .. you will choose to believe in science right!

Ahh.. but if u change any words u like in the bible, u r playing god and building your own religion. Why don't u just make something totally up which u believe in ?

Not even once

Ok, fine. Then let the readers who had read the book judged themselves

happyharvest SG

Laughing

Icemoon SG

I'd like to think you hit the jackpot when you said "U can't generalise tat water must either be evil or good, then treat water as evil when it is just water". That's the point I was trying to put across - the "source" is like water, you can use it for good or you can use it for evil.

Your example like doesn't apply leh .. I read liao still catch no ball. Anyway your example is nothing new under the sun. More than 2000 years ago in China, someone asked this "paradox" - if black horse is horse, white horse also horse, does it mean black is white?

Let the readers judged themselves then

Rest assure no one reads our exchange! Laughing

Ahh.. but if u change any words u like in the bible, u r playing god and building your own religion. Why don't u just make something totally up which u believe in ?

Crazy .. when did I change words in the bible?

Ok, fine. Then let the readers who had read the book judged themselves

Maybe they can answer your question better. Laughing

stupidissmart SG

I got to say again tat your analogy is really bad.

Water can be good (driving dynamo) Water can be evil (flood). Then u conclude evil is good.

Water can be hot (boiling water) Water can be cold (freezing water). Then can we conclude hot is equal to cold ?

Car can have a velocity (moving) Car can stop (statioary) SO is moving equal to stationary ?

There is something really wrong with your analogy because it mislead people and in reality it is totally senseless ! Laughing The point is about evil, not water. U can use water for good and evil doesn't means evil can be good Evil is the opposite of good. They r opposite ! U can't be fat and thin, or light and heavy (must be relative to the same frame of reference) at the same time !

So now u still have not name me how evil can be good.

Crazy .. when did I change words in the bible?

The words written is days. U interprete it as billion of years. Then wat is tat call ?

Icemoon SG

When did I conclude evil is good?

I said water (the source) can be used for evil or good .. it is up to you.

The words written is days. U interprete it as billion of years. Then wat is tat call ?

It is called interpreting it intelligently.

For it is written, Psalm 90:4 (NIV) For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

stupidissmart SG

When did I conclude evil is good?

I said water (the source) can be used for evil or good .. it is up to you.

The reason I say God did not create evil is because it is very misleading. We are used to thinking evil is always bad, and so if evil originated from God then God must be even badder right?

I don't think so. After all God declared "it was very good" at the end of creation. So it must be good even for the unsavory parts right?

I wanted to say something like .. God created the source of evil, which isn't evil by itself, but which can lead to evil actions

Because the source of evil can be useful in other ways.

When I ask u to name,

A quick analogy - water can push the boat but can also sink it. So is water evil? Remember God used water to flood everyone to dead wor

Then now after all tis while wat r u trying to say ? HOw is evil useful ? How is evil source not evil ? U give me the water analogy, how do u use tat to explain about evil being good or useful ?

It is called interpreting it intelligently.

For it is written, Psalm 90:4 (NIV) For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

Com'on lah, the bible already stated days in the first page Laughing . Before I start attacking the above phrase, I wanna u to affirm it first otherwise u just act slippery and insincere by stating a stand and quickly abandoning it

SumOne SG

Again it happens, the out of context problem.

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