Sufferings

last SG · 2006-08-26T08:56:36+00:00

didn't read all the mumbo jumbo above..... Wrong question. God did not create suffering.... suffering is the consequence of disobedience. Disobedience may n...

SingaporeMacross SG

Orh...... Mr. Green

ben1xy SG

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/more/w-f.htm

is this a fair representation?

ben1xy SG

i saw one of those sermons through the net. they were talking abt borrowing money and finance stuff

i stopped watching after 20 mins.. i kept thinking that there will be some connection point, but it didnt come

oh well

ben1xy SG

i think we can both agree with MC on this

illvsion SG

hope i'm speaking to christians if not i'm probably from the wrong forum. Because we should believe the word because The word is God 1 John 1:1.

Paul warned, if anyone preaches anything other than the gospel, let it be a curse.

Aren't this forum Eternal Hope> Sufferings > are discussed such that every one will get hope and build one another not to bring ppl down?? i will not start a war but to share my views and things i have learn to build one another. i'm open to be corrected but on basis. not from some Dr so and so... without bible verse. Aren't christian be worried receiving from people preaching reader digest?

thanks Icemoon for bringing the part on God boasting about job. I have found and learn something new.

let God answer his action

Ezekiel 14

12 The word of the LORD came to me: 13 "Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its men and their animals, 14 even if these three menNoah, Daniel [a] and Jobwere in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
15 "Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts, 16 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.

17 "Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, 'Let the sword pass throughout the land,' and I kill its men and their animals, 18 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.

19 "Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath upon it through bloodshed, killing its men and their animals, 20 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.

21 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgmentssword and famine and wild beasts and plagueto kill its men and their animals! 22 Yet there will be some survivorssons and daughters who will be brought out of it. They will come to you, and when you see their conduct and their actions, you will be consoled regarding the disaster I have brought upon Jerusalemevery disaster I have brought upon it. 23 You will be consoled when you see their conduct and their actions, for you will know that I have done nothing in it without cause, declares the Sovereign LORD."

whatever God does there's a reason and it's usually recorded.
just remember he's before christ. and what God booast is correct.
Abraham, issac , jacob are righteous by faith.

if we don't go by faith then what? pls enlighten me

and pls don't say ppl are this and that without letting the author know on what basis, i appriciate Icemoon for letting me know what i should lookout for.
and clear people's doubt.

you may be right when you ask God for wealth. Not buy lottery and wait and ask God to help you strike(cos tomorrow might not see him in church anymore). He know how to give it to the person. probably gave him a good career, and probably some challange came and he trusted the Lord to overcome it, walk with the Lord and learn responsibilities thru the job, then still have time for family and friends and go to church.

Deuteronomy 8:18
But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

notice it's the ability, not just give u wealth.

davidche SG

Originally posted by M©+square:
Not that they are unbiblical.

Just that the doctrince/teaching which they presented is theory centered and then using verses to support.
Eg. [b]Prosperity Gospel.

Yes! There are godly principles in which they teach.
But is this a doctrine? No.
But is it true that God has and will give us in which whatever we ask for?

Yes. A humble and contrite heart, God will not hold his hands away from such believers.

Is it enough for us to say ' God gives us wealth and riches!!!'
'Just pray and ask from your father, and He will hear you and give His riches to you.'
IT is HIS PROMISE!

NO no no and no.

This is way off....and this is what i meant by using a few verses and principle to come out with a doctrine.

NO go...

Laughing

Cheers

[/b]

Hey, tat was wad i was saying about, cheng2 gong1 shen2 xue2

see, ive got a pro confirming my stand.

davidche SG

You havent answered my question.

klydeer SG

Originally posted by illvsion:

Job's suffering is done by the devil and God allowed it( God's protection departed) as Job is not a man of faith( he doubt that perhaps his sons have sin job 1:5) but a man of self-righteous. if you read his whole story , he say i have done this , done that, why still suffer. complain to his friends about God is unjust. then God have to come until the end and tell him off, "where were you when i laid the foundation of the earth?" job 38:4 . is like saying,(my own term) why? trying to gain credits huh? Then when job realised he need God and humbled himself, God restored him double of what he lost.

May i just comment on the above part as i believe in relates to my earlier question.

May i ask what do you mean when you say Job is not a man of faith ? In comparison to Job, you are a man of faith ? So perhaps you can tell us how would you have reacted if:

1. All of your properties are taken or destroyed in an instant.
2. All of your sons and daugthers died when the house in which they lived suddenly collapsed.

Do you know what Job did afterwards in Job 1:20? Read it in case you didnt.

Or havent you noticed what God says in verse 8 ? You have another meaning for the word "blameless" ?

You quoted Job 1:5 as Job not have faith ? But Job sacrificed the burnt offering every single day (do you know what this means in those days?) without God coming to tell him that his sons have sinned. That is not faith ? To me, that is the faith of trusting the Lord in all circumstances - even those in the hearts of his sons. Are you a parent ? If you are, have you prayed to the Lord to forgive the sins upon which your sons might have committed in the day and through the night ?

I have a few more questions for you. Hopefully you will be answering them.

1. What is faith to you ? Is it by the recognition of your well being and prosperity ? Or is it through suffering, yet we praise God no matter the outcome ?

2. How do you define God's relationship with you?

3. What do you think Jesus mean in Matthew 9:13?

Thank you.

klydeer SG

To me, it is about the intentional appeal to men's carnal desires (from the pulpit to the congregation) which our Lord has warned many many times against. And i share with you, my disgust.

illvsion SG

For me, i feel that after one prays for healing, one shld be in the right mind that God's will is THE BEST, and nt think that God will definitely heal one, cos God has the will whether or nt to.

If every prayer God will listen to, then God isnt God, but a all-powerful servant that listens to one's commands.

Another thing you said about the daily bread, Shld we be praying for bread daily or 3 times a day?[

Davidche, are you refering to this?

About prayers i believe pray as much as u like but at least once a day. If your church told you to have 3 times 6 times and you agree, go ahead. cos it's good. it's the same as when a couple in love, they always chat over the phone until very long. chat more than once a day.

about God's will, i have a question for you, what do you think God's will is.
i used to think it's something about God's plan that's not revealed to anyone. his ways, until i found this in the bible.

John 6:39-40 about God's will.
John 6:28-29 about Work of God.

hope i have answered your question or this issnt the question? Razz

davidche SG

God don't change his mind but we change.(sometime we believe sometime we don't) we have to ask for blessing and protection constantly thru prayer. ( that's y Jesus teach us to pray "give us today our daily bread." y not yearly or eternal bread ? then no need to pray anymore right?) If you ask for something yet don't believe God will supply ( aka try try) sure won't happen one. and sometime when thing don't happen soon enough, devil taking the opportunties saying won't happen one, God will bless meh ? what have u done to deserve it?!? then loose hope and try something else. oh man, the devil's same trick on adam and eve works again.

My question for you is shld we pray daily or 3 times a day(edit).

I hope you see the link and paradox between my quote and my question.

After you see it then answer me.

Im sorry i cant express myself the link between.

Lastly, im nt puposely looking for trouble.

Thanks

illvsion SG

klydeer thanks for pointing out those things that i may take note of and hopefully be able to answer and let us grow in the Lord.

thanks i have found something interesting. do you agree job is self righteous?

first lets look at this statement

Job 1:8
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

next let's look at this

Genesis 6:9
This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

question. blameless among people of his time can it mean he's the best of the lot and the lot may be bad? yet he got drunk and lay nude.

Job 1:6
There is no one on earth like him.
can it means he's the best God have at that time? but may not be perfect by God's standard?

notice the story started with, the accuser presented himself before the Lord. question. what "good" intend does he have to present himself? surely to accuse right ?and anything not perfect he will accuse? why not God wanted to test Job and thus invited Satan?
do you think God know Satan's intend and satan already have someone in mind? will satan choose some donno who to accuse? waste time right.
and as a perfect judge, if a case presented to you, will you take it up? thus satan have to show prove.

This is what Job said
Job 27:6
I will maintain my righteousness and never let go of it; my conscience will not reproach me as long as I live.

what self righteousness is this. Am i right, usually thru suffering you see people's ture colour but God already saw his heart And Satan, even thou he cannot see ppl's heart he can see job is self-righteous?

Job 32:1
So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

in his own eye, not God's eye

self righteous is a form of no faith, they trusted themself. Abraham didn't trusted his own work but because abraham believe God.

you should read Job 32 - 35 on what elihu have said and he's the only one God never scold like the other 2 friend. it also have a beautiful picture of Jesus as a redeemer in job 33. Suffering still don't want repent and ask God to save and deliver him. Job 34:30-33

next. on the burn offering. i'm happy that u brought this up and i have since gain new knowledge. thanks.

let's look at Leviticus 1

3 " 'If the offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he is to offer a male without defect. He must present it at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting so that it [a] will be acceptable to the LORD. 4 He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him. 5 He is to slaughter the young bull before the LORD, and then Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and sprinkle it against the altar on all sides at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 6 He is to skin the burnt offering and cut it into pieces. 7 The sons of Aaron the priest are to put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 Then Aaron's sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, including the head and the fat, on the burning wood that is on the altar. 9 He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

notice he(the sinner) will lay his hand, and it(the offering) will be accepted on his behalf. If Job is self righteous, do you think he thinks he needs an atonement? that's y he might be doing for his children and not for himself
Read Job 34 onward and it's said that will God come and warn you. If his sons have sin , will he not warn him?

Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom. Job 1 :5
notice he sacrifice for each of them, then y not say for himself and his family?

perhaps is a word which create doubt.

faith? what is faith? it's just believeing God is a good God, Jesus is Good, he came to heal, love and forgive and many good things.

look at the people Jesus commented as "Great is your faith", "Your faith", and also people he commented as "you man of little faith"
you will find why Jesus say that.
i'll leave it for you who are interested or hungry to seek it out.

I say this becos i want Him to receive all the Glory.
my life was a mess and i have many troubles and friendship problem.
Jesus delivered me which took me a period of time and restored more. but during this time i trusted him.

My relationship. all i know, JESUS LOVES ME.

finally, it should be clear now who is the righteous He's refering to ?

May you find the nuggets of Gold in the bible and Jesus is to key to many event in the old testiment to unlock treasures. Love stroy of Ruth, David and Jonathan close friendship, Joseph as a picture of Jesus and Isreal, the interesting drama of Esther. and Noah found Grace are few interesting bible event i encourage you to read on . thanks.

illvsion SG

Not that they are unbiblical.

Just that the doctrince/teaching which they presented is theory centered and then using verses to support.
Eg. Prosperity Gospel.

Yes! There are godly principles in which they teach.
But is this a doctrine? No.
But is it true that God has and will give us in which whatever we ask for?

Yes. A humble and contrite heart, God will not hold his hands away from such believers.

Is it enough for us to say ' God gives us wealth and riches!!!'
'Just pray and ask from your father, and He will hear you and give His riches to you.'
IT is HIS PROMISE!

NO no no and no.

This is way off....and this is what i meant by using a few verses and principle to come out with a doctrine.

NO go...

Laughing

Cheers

I can say, there's many things that people misunderstand on "Prosperity Gospel"(hmm why not health gospel...). 1 reason is i feel is.

1) people have tried this and don't really work on them and say it's just a way to attract members as it sound so worldy.

btw, what is this doctrince you talk about and what does it base on? was it parrell to the bible ? who wrote those doctrince ( i like to know cos i'm curious.)

many a time people just listen to 1 or 2 messages. but i can say, 1 message cannot unlock all things. how long do you need to finish reading a bible? i myself haven't finish . and worst, people judge the sermon base on 1 or 2 sermons. i know becasue i was once like that and was very uncomfortable.

for once, what i have heard was not very theory centered. but heavy on Jesus and his finish work. I do not know what CHC talk about but all i know is this:

take this phase from the bible for instant - All this things will be given unto you.matthew 6:33 - sounds familar? when i first saw this, i think, wa soo good meh ? sounds too good to be true. right? may not be for me only some people will receive ...will God give money?!? ( yes? and no?)

i found out that we have to read the bible in context

Matthew 6:25-34 is about do not worry ( people usually worry when trouble comes)

Matthew 6:33
part 1 (But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness), part 2 (and all these things will be given to you as well.) - All mean everything right? if not will be written as most things.

look at 2 parts. if you know computer programming, for part 2 to be activated, part one criteria must be fufill. correct ?

now what is this kingdom we must seek? i believe it's refering to kingdom of God. and whose righteousness ? Jesus's righteousness right? it's righteousness by faith.

now matthew 6 warn about people do things to show off. 'acts of righteousness' also refers to act of self righteous, proud.

matthew 6:19-24 warn about people storing treasure on earth is like people who translate 6:33 into "Seek first all this things be given unto me (money and health), then his righteous and his kingdom. many a time they will not receive, even if they receive,they will forget about righteous and kingdom of God

Deuteronomy 8:18
But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

those people forget the LORD our GOD, and say it's is THEIR power and ability that make THEMSELVES rich. the above mention is with wrong priority.

that y Jesus say it's harder for rich man to enter the kingdom of God. but never say about a rich believer who believe and remember it's God who give him the ability. like abraham and issac, joseph ?ect...

now. the most important part of the whole thing to unlock part 2 is this. What is the Kingdom of God?

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

how to receive the Holy Spirit? Go and search for yourself in the bible.

notice to fufil many condition revolve around faith. we need to expand and explain so many may accept that every thing is unlock by simple faith. many a time we don't need to dismantle a calculator to enjoy the benefits.

with this, the purpose of writing this is not to put people down. but to built people up becasue Jesus's work is Perfect and complete ( he sat down). Jesus's love is Perfect. believe and allow Jesus to Loves you and thus you will be able to Love one another and ultimately Love God.

For christian who is suffering,

Psalm 23:4
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

verse 1 - 3 Jesus guide you, verse 4 I walk- your own will. The stuff is to hook the sheep out of the Pit(saves) and the rod to beat the wolves(protect).

Hebrews 4:14-16

Jesus the Great High Priest

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we areyet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

my advice, it's time to ask God to deliver you( have confident). Rejoyce! Very Happy and be happy and believe He is GOOD. thanks

p.s. for prayer, david, daily or 3 times a day. it's up to you, i don't think bible enforce a rule to how many times. but do as you believe. for me i would encourage more. even Giving thanks is a form or prayer. Wink

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