Biggest question in hell!!

ben1xy SG

[quote]Originally posted by laurence82:

You bet it is

hurhur

So you are proposing that there is this grey area between good and evil?

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ppl tend to apply free will to only humans. but if the idea of free will applies to even the earth, then it explains natural disasters

my other theory, not mine actually... St Augustine's theory is that Evil is not evil.

give u an analogy; u cannot put darkness in the room. U can only dim the light. He was pushing towards something where he explains evil as a lack of goodness

which means that evil wasnt created. but a deprivition of goodness

a bit cheem lah ... but the whole confessions of St Augustine is all real cheem anyway

davidche SG

woot! not cheem at all. pretty cool! thx! yup! solved my problem!

Wow, didnt know you ppl were so clever!(no sacarsm)

Smile

peace ,--this works well when u post a post that has the potential of ppl mistakening it to be an offense to someone

stupidissmart SG

let me try to my very best to recall wad he said in his confessions. He was questioning where evil came from if God made all things and because he was good al things were good. He went on to posit that there was a privition of good, and that evil was a non-being. Think abt it this way, like dark is not darkness but a lack of light. Thus Evil is not evil but a lack of goodness. u get wad i'm driving at here? i can't articulate it properly.

According to the scripture, good and evil r quantities of its own, much like positive charge and negative charge. Tat is why the fruit is call "knowledge of good and evil" and not "knowledge of good". Even if u view it from a scientific angle, degree of "darkness" and "cold" has a limit becasue it is the absence of some othe quantity. However is there a limit on "evil" ?

Furthermore, in the scripture it says god create the light and dark, when dark is simply the absence of light. Wat does tis phrase means then ?

Hmm, let's try a philosophical approach then, let's go back to the concept of free will. in that in creating the world, God allows the world to be itself but having the independance or the freedom that was the result of the love of God? this would explain why natural disasters happen. I think i am driving somehwere towards the chaos theory though not exactly there.. but that God is in control of the world, not in minute details but more of maintaining the order of going of events. Erm... infinite possibilities through abitrary events but yet, an assurance of development. i hope i am not getting too confusing

U mean god is not in control of the world and or he allow suffering and pains to exist and multiply thus making him a god tat is devoid of benevolence than wat he claims ? If there is no god, it make sense because no one had the power to control the forces of nature. If there is a prefect god, then it is senseless because he is either not benevolent, too powerless or not present or care anymore

ben1xy SG

hmm, SIS, have u tried reading up on the concept of free will? in that God allows individualism and choices in order that we might live life to the fullest? but it was in this freedom of choice that sprouted the root on evil. but it was a good point that u brought up

'If there is no god, it make sense because no one had the power to control the forces of nature. If there is a prefect god, then it is senseless because he is either not benevolent, too powerless or not present or care anymore'

this were the exact things that St Augustine was struggling to come to terms with.

His main arguments were that: God loved the world so much that he allowed the physical world to be itself.

another of his argument was that God judged it better to bring good out of evil, than to suffer no evil to exist (book 7 of the confessions)

my apologies that i cannot explain this concept clearly, as i do not pretend to be on that same level as St Augustine. But i do think that u can glimpse wad he is trying to say. I'm not saying he is right or wrong. am just offering another alternative to explain

ben1xy SG

oh SIS ah, pls bear in mind that i am Catholic and thus do not subscribe to the same scriptural views as my Protestant brothers.

Catholics treat scripture slightly differently as compared to Protestant. Catholics also tend to view Genesis as symbolic and that's why we have no problems with the theory of evolution

stupidissmart SG

First and foremost, free will and most decision do not deal with sin Rolling Eyes I can choose to play a video game rather than watch movie, I will rather take a bus than the train etc. Free will does not necssary equate to sinning and saying tat evil is created because we have free will is not correct. It is only in some cases where free will bring sinful nature (such as killing someone, or scold someone etc) but than if we do not have the capability of doing such actions, things r actually better.

And since free will is endorsed by god, why does he punish us for practising the free will ? On one hand he is supposed to encourage us to have free will, which inevitably and 100% led us to sinning, then he punish us for practising the free will. Is tat giving free will or tat a trap ? It is stated by jesus itself tat he rather cut off his limps and gorge out his eyes in order to get eternal life. Why doesn't he do tis to human ? I, perhaps most people, rather have a lesser degree of free will such tat we do not have the capability of sinning in order to have eternal life than eternal damnation.

His main arguments were that: God loved the world so much that he allowed the physical world to be itself.

Then why does he interfere with the physical world by coming over and demanding people to his servants ? If he want the world to be itself, he shoudn't interfere like tis

another of his argument was that God judged it better to bring good out of evil, than to suffer no evil to exist (book 7 of the confessions)

Suffer no evil to exists ? Wat is the suffering of no evil ? I thought suffering is derived from evil

oh SIS ah, pls bear in mind that i am Catholic and thus do not subscribe to the same scriptural views as my Protestant brothers.

Catholics treat scripture slightly differently as compared to Protestant. Catholics also tend to view Genesis as symbolic and that's why we have no problems with the theory of evolution

Do u believe in genesis then ? If it is symbolic then wat is your stand on adam eating the fruit and caused sinning among people ? Is it as some would described, selective believing ?

ben1xy SG

i see where u r coming from. but do u see where i am coming from? Free will is given so that we may live life to the fullest. However, evil sprouted from the gift of free Will. oh Sis, i am not God and i cannot answer your question. God did give us a route away from eternal damnation, the price was the death of his Son on the cross for us. by now u should know the Christian viewpoint right. so to put it concisely: free will to live life to the fullest=> however there's the capability of sinning => therefore the need of redemption through the cross.

I would like to question ur concept on a lesser degree of Free Will. Either u have free will or you don't. it's a dichotomy.

Can u elaborate on this point. i dun quite get it

did u read my post on evil is a deprivition of goodness?

Catholics subscribes to 3 pillars; scripture, traditions and mageisterium. Perharps we can continue this aspect of discussion in another thread?

Lastly SIS, i am not trying to convert u. i am just stating my case as a Catholic.

stupidissmart SG

see where u r coming from. but do u see where i am coming from? Free will is given so that we may live life to the fullest. However, evil sprouted from the gift of free Will. oh Sis, i am not God and i cannot answer your question. God did give us a route away from eternal damnation, the price was the death of his Son on the cross for us. by now u should know the Christian viewpoint right. so to put it concisely: free will to live life to the fullest=> however there's the capability of sinning => therefore the need of redemption through the cross.

I would like to question ur concept on a lesser degree of Free Will. Either u have free will or you don't. it's a dichotomy.

My belief is free will is not a dichotomy Rolling Eyes Restricted free will where everything can be the same, much like u and me and the difference is tat the thought of sinning never cross his mind. In a way it is still free will but with lesser options available The option of sinning is simply not given. U still live life to the fullest and in tis case earth has become something like heaven. If u got any complaints I can say none of them is worse than eternal hell. Do u agree with tat ?

And about your sinning and "redemption of the cross", it doesn't work because evil and sin is still plentiful now. Your propose solution does not alter the occurence of sin but only the view of sin, which simply can be transmitted to everyone instead of some people.

Can u elaborate on this point. i dun quite get it

If god love the world to be in its nature state or "itself be itself", he wouldn't have to make jesus or moses come down and alter humanity. He wouldn't send a big flood and kill almost every single being neither will he curse men to always have conflicts among themselves. He has shown to always "act" and not let the world "itself be itself". Strangely he did not stop typhoon, diesease or earthquake tat kill thousands if not million of people. Then u claim he want the world to "be itself". Isn't tat contradicting ?

did u read my post on evil is a deprivition of goodness?

Did u read my reply on it ?

Just a yes or no question. U do not believe the bible 100%. Some portion r better left alone or treat it as though it is just a fairy tale for interest.

ben1xy SG

since u have agreed to disagree with everything. i will not carry on. coz it's really pointless. Confused

ben1xy SG

but i have to answer his part. this is the bare minimum i can do as a Catholic

All scripture is profitable. As for Genesis, i take it as symbolic.

and also, pls do not compare the bible to fairy tales. it's really unbecoming. Religious harmony and respect is an important tenet of society

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