Need some clarifications / advice from Christians

last SG · 2006-06-24T01:20:59+00:00

You have to firstly understand what the Bible is. To understand what the Bible is you need to know what it is not. It is not a science text book. It is not...

casino_king SG

I replied but there was an error msg and so I replied again and the same error msg came out... so don't blame me if you get 2 or if you get zero replies.

Chin Eng SG

Shocked ksm

laoda99 SG

yeah!!!

laoda99 SG

i sent him a pm to ask him how he get rich and can surf sgforums whole day Mr. Green

casino_king SG

From the passage that you quoted the qualifications are not there. Jesus did not put in these qualifications.

You read the passage again, you will see that it was not for general public consumption but for his disciples.

Another curious thing... how is it that Jesus' dsciples were surprised? They have been with Him for a long time by then. They would have seen the miracles Jesus did and yet they marveled. They marveled because they were men, like you and me. They were not God and they knew it.

Do you think that God would give such powers to just anybody to do anything that they want with it?

Jesus' disciples past and present would be able to understand the purpose of the powers.

This is Jesus' encouragement for His disciples past and present. Jesus' disciples past and present understand that they are alive to do the will of God. Yet they do the will of God as a man, not a god.

For them to carry out the will of God in their lives, not only:

"Even as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil... but everything that I ask of God; it shall be done."

gssq SG

Ahh, context. With context you can make what is commonly understood to mean one thing mean something else. How do we know what is for general public consumption and what is for disciples? How do we know if Ephesians was directed only at Ephesians and not at people for all time? How can we arbitrarily decide that a certain verse is timeless and another is specific and context-dependent? Is it only when we need to engage in post-hoc justification.

Another curious thing... How is it Jesus' parents were surprised when he went into the temple to lecture people (Luke 2:41-52)? I thought they knew he was the Son of God. Hmm.

"Whatever you pray for will come true, but only if it's what God wills". Right.

Whatever you ask me to do, I will do, but only if I want to do it.

gssq SG

Wth. Can't read Chinese lah, esp fan ti zhi.

Well, then obviously there's a contradiction in there, no?

SingaporeMacross SG

That's the Pater Noster in Chinese!!!

I only know the modern version.

casino_king SG

Originally posted by gssq:

Common sense; spiritual discernment; guidance from God. The bible is an exegesis of believers' experiences of God over time. The "bible" is continually written in the lives of Children of God even today. Those who are of God would be able to interprete it.

:Originally posted by casino_king:
Another curious thing... how is it that Jesus' dsciples were surprised? They have been with Him for a long time by then. They would have seen the miracles Jesus did and yet they marveled. They marveled because they were men, like you and me. They were not God and they knew it.

Originally posted by gssq:
Another curious thing... How is it Jesus' parents were surprised when he went into the temple to lecture people (Luke 2:41-52)? I thought they knew he was the Son of God. Hmm.

When they looked at Jesus, they saw a man. When you look at someone Born of the Spirit, you see a man. Jesus could have made mountains jump up and down and say to the Jews (and His parents) bow down and Worship the Son of God!

Jesus could have struck anyone who did not believe Him dead on the spot. Jesus was restrained, Jesus was personal, Jesus was one to one. People came to Jesus willingly and of their own accord. Jesus set the example of how God deals with man.

You want to know God? You have to come to God... come in total humility and surrender some more... !

:Originally posted by casino_king:
This is Jesus' encouragement for His disciples past and present. Jesus' disciples past and present understand that they are alive to do the will of God. Yet they do the will of God as a man, not a god. For them to carry out the will of God in their lives

[quote]Originally posted by gssq:
"Whatever you pray for will come true, but only if it's what God wills". Right.

Whatever you ask me to do, I will do, but only if I want to do it.
When God asks His children to do His work, He does not force them. They can say no. They use their human (not supernatural) strenght and intelligence. Only under special circumstances where their human abilities fails and divine help is required, would God intervene.

So you see, even when they are doing the will of God in their lives, it is through their own human abilities. Jesus had given them a lesson that God's intevention is there when they need it. Children of God understand this. You will not.

If God uses supernatural and divine intervention, why use human proxies? Why use His children? Why use me? Why not just go on TV and make an announcement?

That would reduce you to the status of an animal with no chance of being Born Again; Born of the Spirit.

davidche SG

erm…ok…..one word—-wadever…

gssq SG

Everyone's common sense, spiritual discernment and guidance from God is different. People's interpretation of the Bible is guided by their pre-existing prejudices. Homophobes find that the Bible says gays will burn in hell. Gays find that the Bible preaches love. Abortion clinic bombers similarly find justification inside for themselves.

"God says" = "I say"

That's irrelevant. I mean why were his parents surprised when they knew he was the Son of God?

And if I see and only see a man, you can't fault me for not recognising him as the Son of God.

"Suppose, however, that God did give this law to the Jews, and did tell them that whenever a man preached a heresy, or proposed to worship any other God that they should kill him; and suppose that afterward this same God took upon himself flesh, and came to this very chosen people and taught a different religion, and that thereupon the Jews crucified him; I ask you, did he not reap exactly what he had sown? What right would this god have to complain of a crucifixion suffered in accordance with his own command?" - Robert G. Ingersoll

And what about all the people who "come in total humility" and "surrender" but don't find your god? Have you considered that maybe you're looking at the wrong place? Have you "come in total humility" and surrendered to Allah, Brahma, Buddha, Zeus, Amon-Ra, Pele, Kim Jong Il, Quetzalcoatl, Odin, Zarathrustra, Anshar, that big tree over there and the Tooth Fairy?

What does that have to do with "Pray for what I want and I'll do it"?

casino_king SG

quote:Originally posted by casino_king:
Common sense; spiritual discernment; guidance from God. The bible is an exegesis of believers' experiences of God over time. The "bible" is continually written in the lives of Children of God even today. Those who are of God would be able to interprete it.

Originally posted by gssq:
Everyone's common sense, spiritual discernment and guidance from God is different. People's interpretation of the Bible is guided by their pre-existing prejudices. Homophobes find that the Bible says gays will burn in hell. Gays find that the Bible preaches love. Abortion clinic bombers similarly find justification inside for themselves.

"God says" = "I say"

That is why you must be Born Again. There is no point for you to lie to yourself. That is the beauty of Jesus' teaching. That is the beauty of God's way. It is a personal one on one you and Him relationship.

I can tell you that God does not condemn the Homosexuals in the same way as God does not condemn the prostitute in the same way as God does not condemn your sins, your white lies.

God is simply waiting for you to come to Him. If you are sin conscious, remember that Jesus had paid the price for you and just come to God and be Born Again. There is no point for you to lie to yourself.

Originally posted by casino_king:
When they looked at Jesus, they saw a man. When you look at someone Born of the Spirit, you see a man. Jesus could have made mountains jump up and down and say to the Jews (and His parents) bow down and Worship the Son of God!

Originally posted by gssq:
That's irrelevant. I mean why were his parents surprised when they knew he was the Son of God? And if I see and only see a man, you can't fault me for not recognising him as the Son of God.

"Suppose, however, that God did give this law to the Jews, and did tell them that whenever a man preached a heresy, or proposed to worship any other God that they should kill him; and suppose that afterward this same God took upon himself flesh, and came to this very chosen people and taught a different religion, and that thereupon the Jews crucified him; I ask you, did he not reap exactly what he had sown? What right would this god have to complain of a crucifixion suffered in accordance with his own command?" - Robert G. Ingersoll

The Ten Commandments
Deut. 5.1-21
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 ¶ I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 ¶ Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: Ex. 34.17 · Lev. 19.4 ; 26.1 · Deut. 4.15-18 ; 27.15 for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Ex. 34.6, 7 · Num. 14.18 · Deut. 7.9, 10
7 ¶ Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: Lev. 19.12 for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 ¶ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Ex. 16.23-30 ; 31.12-14
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, Ex. 23.12 ; 31.15 ; 34.21 ; 35.2 · Lev. 23.3 thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Gen. 2.1-3 · Ex. 31.17
12 ¶ Honor thy father and thy mother: Deut. 27.16 · Mt. 15.4 ; 19.19 · Mk. 7.10 ; 10.19 · Lk. 18.20 · Eph. 6.2 that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Eph. 6.3
13 ¶ Thou shalt not kill. Gen. 9.6 · Lev. 24.17 · Mt. 5.21 ; 19.18 · Mk. 10.19 · Lk. 18.20 · Rom. 13.9 · Jas. 2.11
14 ¶ Thou shalt not commit adultery. Lev. 20.10 · Mt. 5.27 ; 19.18 · Mk. 10.19 · Lk. 18.20 · Rom. 13.9 · Jas. 2.11
15 ¶ Thou shalt not steal. Lev. 19.11 · Mt. 19.18 · Mk. 10.19 · Lk. 18.20 · Rom. 13.9
16 ¶ Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Ex. 23.1 · Mt. 19.18 · Mk. 10.19 · Lk. 18.20
17 ¶ Thou shalt not covet Rom. 7.7 ; 13.9 thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

So are you now going to tell me that because God did not give you evidence of His existence, you are free not to put your Faith in God? That is your perogative, God is not going to force you otherwise God will have to turn you into an animal.

Why is it that I can put my Faith in God and you cannot? I am a man and you are a man.

Originally posted by casino_king:
You want to know God? You have to come to God... come in total humility and surrender some more... !

Originally posted by gssq:
And what about all the people who "come in total humility" and "surrender" but don't find your god? Have you considered that maybe you're looking at the wrong place? Have you "come in total humility" and surrendered to Allah, Brahma, Buddha, Zeus, Amon-Ra, Pele, Kim Jong Il, Quetzalcoatl, Odin, Zarathrustra, Anshar, that big tree over there and the Tooth Fairy?

I cannot judge others, I am not God. I can only tell you what I know and what I understand from my own relationship with God.

I can tell you this though, from my experience before I was Born Again; that if you say something like "Brahma" or "Tooth Fairy" you are automatically arrogant for you have a concept of God that you are comfortable with and that is idolatry. Idolatry speaks of man's arrogance. That he is higher than God. That he can come only to a God he understands.

The Jews on the other hand, knows that there is one God but what did they do? The try to please God by using their own strenght and abilities and not by simply having Faith in God. Arrogance again.

Originally posted by casino_king:
When God asks His children to do His work, He does not force them.

Originally posted by gssq:
What does that have to do with "Pray for what I want and I'll do it"?

Everything. Like if God ask His beloved to go against a scary person or situation or authority... he is reminded of Jesus' words...

Just remember that Being Born Again does not turn you into God.

gssq SG

You're not getting it. If you are born again, and someone else is born again, but your god is telling both of you contradictory things - how?

Other born again people would disagree.

There's also no point lying to yourself if you can't perceive this god.

Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev 20:13 -16 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. If a man has sex with another man, kill them both.

And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

Need any more?

gssq SG

If your god doesn't want to show himself, there's nothing I can do right?

If I jump off a bridge does that mean you should jump off a bridge also?

"Why is it that I can jump off a bridge you cannot? I am a man and you are a man."

So those of other religions are arrogant? I won't report you for sedition but let's hope others aren't as idiotic as FundieP.

One man's god is another man's idol. One man's delusion is another man's god.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts

???

casino_king SG

Originally posted by gssq:
You're not getting it. If you are born again, and someone else is born again, but your god is telling both of you contradictory things - how?

Originally posted by casino_king:
I can tell you that God does not condemn the Homosexuals in the same way as God does not condemn the prostitute in the same way as God does not condemn your sins, your white lies.

Originally posted by gssq:
Other born again people would disagree.

That is their perogative isn't it? If they think they have a revelation from God that God is going to wipe homosexuals from the face of the earth or that they hear from God that God wants them to kill the homosexuals; that is their perogative.

I can only tell them my revelations from God. I can tell them the consequences of their actions. I can tell them that Born Again does not equal becoming God. I know what Born Again is. I know what revelation of God's will in a Born Again person's life is.

I do not judge them. The homosexuals and the homophobic. I simply remind each the consequences of their actions. I simply advise them not to judge each other for they both are not perfect. Cast the first stone, who?

[quote]Originally posted by casino_king:
God is simply waiting for you to come to Him. If you are sin conscious, remember that Jesus had paid the price for you and just come to God and be Born Again. There is no point for you to lie to yourself.

Originally posted by gssq:
There's also no point lying to yourself if you can't perceive this god.

What then would be the point of my lying to myself (that is not any of your business BTW) but more importantly, why would I lie to you? Whether you believe me or not, whether you come to God or not, if God does not force you why should I? God can God does not; I certainly cannot. I do the will of God in my life.

Originally posted by casino_king:
13 ¶ Thou shalt not kill. Gen. 9.6 · Lev. 24.17 · Mt. 5.21 ; 19.18 · Mk. 10.19 · Lk. 18.20 · Rom. 13.9 · Jas. 2.11

Originally posted by gssq:
Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev 20:13 -16 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. If a man has sex with another man, kill them both.

And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

Need any more?

I still go with

13 ¶ Thou shalt not kill. Gen. 9.6 · Lev. 24.17 · Mt. 5.21 ; 19.18 · Mk. 10.19 · Lk. 18.20 · Rom. 13.9 · Jas. 2.11 [/quote]

6 Whoever sheds man's blood, his blood will be shed by man, for God made man in his own image.

17 "'He who strikes any man mortally shall surely be put to death.

21 "You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones,'You shall not murder;' and'Whoever shall murder shall be in danger of the judgment.'

18 He said to him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder.''You shall not commit adultery.''You shall not steal.''You shall not offer false testimony.'

19 You know the commandments:'Do not murder,''Do not commit adultery,''Do not steal,''Do not give false testimony,''Do not defraud,''Honor your father and mother.'"

20 You know the commandments:'Don't commit adultery,''Don't murder,''Don't steal,''Don't give false testimony,''Honor your father and your mother.'"

9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

It is clear it is direct it is unambiguous.

Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

1. Who is Molech? (Why would you even care?)
2. The Leviticus Laws, what sort of laws are they?

What is the difference between the Ten Commandments "Thou Shall Not Kill" and the The Levitical Laws? Why was Jesus brought before the Romans for His crucifixtion?

I think you should not be too arrogant. Please try to answer the questions I have put to you. The answers would be obvious if you were born again and I want to see if it is obvious to you. It would seem to me that you do not try to read what I am trying to tell you but simply want to find faults where there are none. So please try to answer the questions for your own edification.

casino_king SG

Originally posted by casino_king:
So are you now going to tell me that because God did not give you evidence of His existence, you are free not to put your Faith in God? That is your perogative, God is not going to force you otherwise God will have to turn you into an animal.

Originally posted by gssq:
If your god doesn't want to show himself, there's nothing I can do right?

Wrong.

Do what I did. Ask and it shall be given, seek and you shall find, knock and the door into the Kingdom of heaven shall be open unto you.

Originally posted by casino_king:
Why is it that I can put my Faith in God and you cannot? I am a man and you are a man.

Originally posted by gssq:
If I jump off a bridge does that mean you should jump off a bridge also?

"Why is it that I can jump off a bridge you cannot? I am a man and you are a man."

If I asked you find out for yourself, you cannot? Why not?

Originally posted by casino_king:
if you say something like "Brahma" or "Tooth Fairy" you are automatically arrogant for you have a concept of God that you are comfortable with and that is idolatry. Idolatry speaks of man's arrogance. That he is higher than God. That he can come only to a God he understands.

Originally posted by gssq:
So those of other religions are arrogant? I won't report you for sedition but let's hope others aren't as idiotic as FundieP.

One man's god is another man's idol. One man's delusion is another man's god.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts

There is but one GOD. You do not believe in one fewer god; you have not put your Faith in GOD. One's man idol is andother's man idol. One man idol is not God. It is that man's idol.

Originally posted by casino_king:
The Jews on the other hand, knows that there is one God but what did they do? The try to please God by using their own strenght and abilities and not by simply having Faith in God. Arrogance again.
???
???

Arrogant. You don't be arrogant before God.

Icemoon SG

Modern version .. as in jian ti?

laoda99 SG

actually not much diff la Mr. Green

Icemoon SG

It is the Pater Noster.

The chinese version easier to understand.

I dunno wth is "Our father who art in heaven" Laughing

Icemoon SG

Amazingly .. the website where i got it says it is the Peking version. (in fan ti?!)

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