Righteousness through faith

last SG · 2006-05-02T22:04:22+00:00

had answer you this question before, go find them, I don't want to keep repeating myself.

casino_king SG

I forgot one thing; it is not enough to have your doctorate; remember to bring THE CERTIFICATE to heaven, they want to see it before they let you in.

laurence82 SG

Dont know, but some of the early Christians, now 'outlawed' or labelled 'heretical' were not believers in the Holy Trinity concept, coz it implies a pantheon of gods, not a single god

Interestingly, not saying its wrong or right, Gospel of Judas also stated that jesus were laughing at the aspostles when they were praying at the last supper, which is held during the passover festival, because they were praying to the god who created this world, not the really the god who created the universe or heavens, something like that

laoda99 SG

Thank u. It takes courage to admit u are dumb.

I applaud u.

laoda99 SG

yeah...the gnostics believe the world is created by a evil god call the demiurge, and Christ were sent by the good god to save others....

i won't consider gnostics as Christians. Marcionites and donatists etc maybe closer of being labelled as "Christian Heretics".

laurence82 SG

i dont know, the books is not with me now, but I remember there were numerous different denominations like Monarchianists and Gnostics before they were labelled heretics

casino_king SG

There are 2 processes at work; the first is you read.... the reading is not for "understanding" like you understand science and maths and so on.

The reading is for you to have Faith. Faith does not come from understanding.

After you have faith, you read again and you realise that what you understood when you read the first time round is not what it is. You can also not go back and read it. Whatever for; the purpose of reading was never to understand it in the first place.

So you see Abraham did not have the Bible did he? Jesus took the old testament and in a sense, threw it in the face of the religious leaders.

What Christians need is not to understand Jesus or Abraham or what the Bible says. What Christians need is the Faith that Jesus and Abraham had.

laoda99 SG

Originally posted by casino_king:
[b]There are 2 processes at work; the first is you read.... the reading is not for "understanding" like you understand science and maths and so on.

The reading is for you to have Faith. Faith does not come from understanding.

After you have faith, you read again and you realise that what you understood when you read the first time round is not what it is. You can also not go back and read it. Whatever for; the purpose of reading was never to understand it in the first place.

So you see Abraham did not have the Bible did he? Jesus took the old testament and in a sense, threw it in the face of the religious leaders.

What Christians need is not to understand Jesus or Abraham or what the Bible says. What Christians need is the Faith that Jesus and Abraham had

Only the part in red makes sense.

laurence82 SG

And...so?

Now you know its about faith, so still wanna question if there is such a person called Mr Jesus of Nazareth?

laoda99 SG

Yeah, but I think Gnostics are completely off, even the marcionites (though they also believe in a demiurge) draw themselves away from them.....even though some theologians put them together.

casino_king SG

There is no evidence of that. It does not depend on evidence that Jesus is the Son of God or walked on water or died and rose the 3rd day? All that was for you to have Faith in God. Not understand that you must have faith in God.

If you have it you will know it. This is the whole point of the debate. It is not to help you understand anything. It is simple, do you have faith in God? Nothing more, nothing less.

laoda99 SG

I think I am as dumb as u, I dun understand what u write here.....i dun think anyone of us here have it like u.....

laurence82 SG

laoda, u can now proceed to stab me with a knife

laoda99 SG

ok..stabbed!!! Twisted Evil

casino_king SG

Matthew 7:7-8 - Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Just know that you are not seeking understanding. You are not seeking knowledge. You are not seeking evidence.

maggot SG

Hmm...interesting Laughing

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Hmm... it seems, C.K. that you are suggesting pure Fideism as a model of approaching the Christian faith proper, which is while it has its merits in the sheer pratice, it certainly does not hold true as an answer for determining what path to take in the first place.

To get to a belief in, one needs to first have a belief that. I do not for a moment imagine that the 'belief that' can be achieved without reason, for that suggests no truth claim whatsoever. To first trust into the unknown you have to start from a known point.

Anyway I am not convinced that Christianity is the best system for making this world a less painful, and better place. If I had to choose a system it would be Buddhism, and you can subscribe to Buddhist values without having to buy all this unnecessary nonsense about some notion of an infinite God becoming incarnate and having to do some weird stuff like dying on some cross for the sins of men. All this would be claptrap and unnecessary rubbish to bother with if simply being better was my concern.

If there is a system that is for making this world more agreeable then us and is interested in preserving and improving the status quo, then Christianity would not be it.

That would be of course, if that was our primary concern.

casino_king SG

That initial belief, is that the be all and end all? That is only an introduction to the possibilities. Most people stop there.

To talk in terms where Christians can understand, Abraham was a Hindu or lived among Hindus. He was able to come out of Hinduism. He did not just stop there' doing Hindu rituals and so on. He was in communication with God.

The Jews developed a religion (a new Hinduism) for everyone to follw when in fact Abraham came out of religion.

Jesus who was in direct communication with God came along and ask the Jews to come out of their religion and his followers created a new religion (a new Judaism) for seekers to follow.

vince69 SG

one cannot be a Christian Heretics if they are not considered to be christians in the first place. Smile

my mistake, missed out this word which grossly misrepresent myself, apology

laoda99 SG

abraham a hindu???????????

Shocked Shocked Shocked

Icemoon SG

someone stab me pls ..

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