law .. law .. law

last SG · 2006-05-02T17:24:39+00:00

Actually the consequence is more serious than just robbing God His glory in His Salvation plan for us. cause to say we can earn our place in heaven by observ...

Icemoon SG

Yah .. so the accusers in question are talking nonsense right? Because they do not exactly say that they are following the LAW to be saved.

The rest of the world [gentiles] was committed to the law of conscience.

Here comes the irony. When Christ came, they "lost" their chance of salvation because cannot rely on law of conscience liao.

laoda99 SG

no irony la...Christ is the "best deal" mankind ever get.....

somemore it is once-off.....never to be repeated....so dun miss the offer!!!

Ironside SG

1) Strictly speaking the ones who relied on the Law to be saved [due to wrong use of it] was the Jews. The Law [old covenant] was placed there to led them [israel] to Christ.

Other religions cannot practice the Law for they know nothing of it. they are not in it. Yes, they may practice some things contained in the Law for they have the law of conscience but God does not see them in the covenant. So we Christians do not say that their religion is trying to observe the Law so that they will be saved. They [we] are not in it in the first place.

what we are saying is this: all other religions are based on salvation by works [works does not necessarily mean LAW] only one is not: Christianity.

The LAW served as a mirror. It will show that they cannot be perfectly righteous in thtemselves and so they need a Savior. Christ.

The Law was temporary. [when we say 'Law'.....it always refers to the old covenant made by God to israel].

Ga 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

notice the Law's purpose was to show them that they are transgressors. Compare this verse to Romans 7:13, Romans 3:19-20. It was added. meaning it was not there before. it is temporary. notice the 'tll' word. it was there until Christ would come [Galatians 3:23-24].

The law of conscience was never there to be relied on to be saved. Salvation requires atonement for sins. No conscience can cover for sins committted. only through Christ death and resurrection. The only Savior i see on the cross is Christ.

i do not see any law of conscience crucified there.

Ironside SG

P.S. the law of conscience never ceases at the coming of Christ. it is a part of man's constituiton. however, due to sin it became perverted. When Christ came, our [Christians] consciences should be molded by the principles of grace enunciated in the New Covenant revealed in the New testament].

Icemoon SG

In the OT, the High Priest sacrifices a lamb every year? to atone for the sins of everyone in Israel?

This raises the question of the need to believe in Christ in order for the atonement to be valid.

Icemoon SG

Actually I always ask myself this question - what is more important to God?

1. That we believe in Jesus Christ? or
2. We try to make the world a better place and ourselves a better person?

Note that 1 can happen without 2 happening.

laoda99 SG

What do u mean?

laoda99 SG

Then u have not grasp the true essence of Christianity. The difference is: Your theology is still centered around "urself", in which u believe u can make the world a better place by "urself" and make "urself" a better person by "urself".

For the Christians' view, without 1. , 2. can never happen.

And for 2. We cannot make ourselves a better person without god. No one is good, except Christ, which is why we need Christ's righteous b4 god. With our own righteousness we can never stand b4 god. We will probably be more Chao Tar than "well-done".

Icemoon SG

2 can happen and has happened in different religions.

Buddhism: No god and yet they can be so compassionate.

It was said that Guanyin missed her chance to be Buddha becuase she wanted to stay back and help mankind achieve salvation. It was said that Lord Dizhang refuse to be Buddha until the hells are cleansed.

How many Christians can willingly "forgo" salvation and willingly accompany all their loved ones who are not saved in hell. (because they most probably land up in hell)

So whereas Jesus Christ gave up his life for mankind (no big deal, he was resurrected in the end) and offer everyone salvation for free, Lord Dizhang effectively told the hopeless souls in hell - no one will be left behind.

Jesus Christ was dead for 3 days. Lord Dizhang spent dunno how many years in hell liao.

PS: I might be wrong on the details, maybe Eternal Now can correct me. Razz

laoda99 SG

Christ gave up his life for mankind no big deal? I would say it is the biggest deal in history, becoz no Guanyin/Dizhang, no matter how compassionate they are, are able to redeem mankind for their sins, but Christ, being fully god and fully human, can.

Can u imagine God, sinless and perfect, come down as a man to help redeem man for the sins they have made? The full weight of sin made by mankind was borne by Jesus, not Guanyin/Dizhang.

In case u forget, Guanyin/Dizhang=human

Christ=god

We dun 'forgo' our salvation to save others icemoon, we spread the gospel so that others can be saved. Letting pple hear the gospel is the most important thing a Christian can do while he is still alive.

I rest my case.

P.S. Can u finally answer my question to u: Who is Christ to u?

Icemoon SG

No big deal because if He is God, what's the poking and crucification to Him? By the way, the Jews and Muslims will *never* entertain the thought of God going through such humiliation.

Crucification was a common punishment during Roman times, many people went through it (and I don't think anyone can survive). So in the first place such a punishment isn't any big deal.

In China, there are punishments worse than crucificaiton. Like the infamous ling2 chi2, you know what is that?

PRECISELY! If they are human and human already have such compassion, please quote me any Christian luminary in history who can match them? Who can willingly forgo salvation and say "I am backsliding, I will join you pagans in hell, you will all die assured that you have my company." Laughing

Ironside SG

Total depravity does not mean that all mean are reaaly bad in their works and deeds on the outside. That man could never do anything good.

It teaches that all men are potentially as bad off as he can be. All the sins that have been committed in this world from the first to the last are in us potentially lying dormant and latent only HELD OFF BY COMMON GRACE.

Common grace explains why some people are 'good' and moral. Gandhi has God to thank for a lot of common grace in him.

all people experience God's common grace. Christians experience both saving and common grace.

in hell when common grace will be taken.........man will be so evil and so depraved all the time there. encapable of doing anything good.

Romans 1:23-31 is a picture of God taking away from man common grace.

Icemoon SG

This is like PAP talking. If we bother to think deeper, we'll discover the fallacy.

You said - The full weight of sin made by mankind was borne by Jesus. So let me ask you, is there any difference if Jesus was redeeming one person? The full weight of sin may be lighter, but it is only symbolically!

In actual fact, he will and only need to go through the same punishment! of the same intensity!

Icemoon SG

Is God like PAP?

Always harping on our sins. Why can't God just say "let's move on .. " Mr. Green

People already apologize/repent. What do you want him to do? It takes courage to apologize (and repent) for your sins, you know?

The real issues should be how you treat others, how you love God. Just apologize and move on.

Laughing

laoda99 SG

God is a holy god, he doesn't have to go thru the crucifixion to save mankind, but he did. He chose the nails (may sound like a book's name but I am using it anyway). And this was prophesized in your favourite OT too.

U are right that the Jews and muslims do not subscribe to this idea. If they would, then they would be christians already, not Jews and muslims.

I do not think u understand what Jesus went through during the Crucification. The full weight of human sin was on him, not just the physical pain of enduring the crucifixion. If u still think it is no big deal, then I would say your study of theology has gone to waste.

Sorry I dunno what is Ling Chi. I know what is Ling Zhi Mr. Green

I think I can quote u some pple who go thru human hell in order to save lives e.g. Damien a catholic priest who went to stay with leprosy patients to take care of them and in the end was infected.

But as I have said, Christians do not have to forgo their salvation. It is a different approach. It was said that Christ went to hell to proclaim to the dead during the three days that he has victory over death.

I do not want to compare what Christ did with Dizhang or Guanying. What Christ did, Dizhang and Guanying definitely cannot do, as the latter two is still human, while Christ, is God.

laoda99 SG

Now u sound like an atheist, not jewish anymore.

I do not think God harp on our sins. In fact, he says:"Your sins are forgiven!"

laoda99 SG

Originally posted by Icemoon:

This is like PAP talking. If we bother to think deeper, we'll discover the fallacy.

You said - [b]The full weight of sin made by mankind was borne by Jesus. So let me ask you, is there any difference if Jesus was redeeming one person? The full weight of sin may be lighter, but it is only symbolically!

In actual fact, he will and only need to go through the same punishment! of the same intensity![/b]

No...he definitely is not redeeming just one person. Actually I dun really get what u write. Ur england too powderful for me.

Icemoon SG

Actually not much choice la, 'cos a sacrifice has to be offered. It has to be offered in the form of a sacrifice, meaning it is no gentleman way to die. Even Isaac was tied and Abraham almost plunged the knife. Didn't they have poison then?

I do not think u understand what Jesus went through during the Crucification. The full weight of human sin was on him, not just the physical pain of enduring the crucifixion.

This is vague. What exactly is this weight? Mental stress? Mr. Green

Sorry I dunno what is Ling Chi. I know what is Ling Zhi Mr. Green

Oh .. it is surely more horrifying than crucification. They cut away your flesh bit and bit, I think 365 times, from your body. Then they behead you (ling chi chu si)

At least Jesus had a full body to be buried.

I think I can quote u some pple who go thru human hell in order to save lives e.g. Damien a catholic priest who went to stay with leprosy patients to take care of them and in the end was infected.

No big deal. We had many Damiens in TTSH during SARS. Wink

But as I have said, Christians do not have to forgo their salvation. It is a different approach. It was said that Christ went to hell to proclaim to the dead during the three days that he has victory over death.

And what happened to the death? They believed in him and got a free ticket out of hell?

Icemoon SG

Now you make God sound like PAP. You conveniently forget the red fine print after that.

"Your sins are forgiven .. only if you vote/believe in Jesus"

Laughing

laoda99 SG

1.Actually not much choice la, 'cos a sacrifice has to be offered. It has to be offered in the form of a sacrifice, meaning it is no gentleman way to die. Even Isaac was tied and Abraham almost plunged the knife. Didn't they have poison then?

Ans: It is no ordinary sacrifice. Do u really view it as a ordinary sacrifice which Christ can be replaceable? What is Christ to u?

2.This is vague. What exactly is this weight? Mental stress?

Ans: It is the weight of sin of mankind on him. Past, present and future.

3.Oh .. it is surely more horrifying than crucification. They cut away your flesh bit and bit, I think 365 times, from your body. Then they behead you (ling chi chu si)

Ans: Can u type for me the chinese name? Crucification or Ling Zhi, both also I dun want.

4.No big deal. We had many Damiens in TTSH during SARS.

Ans: Why everything to u no big deal. Then what is big deal to u?

5.And what happened to the death? They believed in him and got a free ticket out of hell?

Ans: this I am not sure. Probably u will know when Christ comes again.

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