Who can go up in the rapture?

Repented John 2 SG

Can a baby Christian who doesnt know anything abt the rapture go up in the rapture? Can a Christian who is saved already but is living a sinful life go up in the rapture also? Can a Christian who doesnt believe in the rapture go up in the rapture? Can anybody care to give answers?

Chin Eng SG

Can a baby Christian who doesnt know anything abt the rapture go up in the rapture?
There is no such thing as a baby Christian.

Can a Christian who is saved already but is living a sinful life go up in the rapture also?
Who is not living a life not committing sin, willing or unwilling? Since when has a sinless life a prerequisite of rapture?

Can a Christian who doesnt believe in the rapture go up in the rapture?
Since when has belief in rapture a prerequisite of getting raptured?

vince69 SG

For a Christian, be it young, old, weak, strong, rich, poor...etc, when standing before God, all He sees is someone who had been sanctified by Christ, hence qualified.
Smile

Heb 10:11-14
11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.
14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

breytonhartge SG

Since the topic of rapture has come up, I would like to take the opportunity to post an article about it. Read it with an open mind and then decide for yourself.

Regards
Brey

Will You Be Left Behind?

By Roderick C. Meredith

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Will God someday rapture away Christian airline pilots, leaving unsaved passengers to face gruesome deaths? Will highways become death-traps as cars lose their drivers? Is the rapture theory biblical, or does Scripture reveal that Gods plan for end-time Christians is far different than most imagine?

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In one of the most brazen religious deceptions of modern times, Tim LaHaye in his Left Behind novels is trying to popularize the "rapture" theory. I say "theory" because this hodgepodge of misplaced and misapplied scriptures is still rejected by the vast majority of professing Christians. And, most importantly, it is totally unprovablebecause it directly contradicts the Bibles clear teachings about Christs Second Coming.
Also, this silly theory pictures a God who would carelessly bring about the purposeless deaths of untold thousands of people! You have perhaps seen bumper stickers on automobiles proclaiming: "In case of rapture, this car will be without a driver!" For the Left Behind novels describe Christians who are piloting planes or driving cars as suddenly "seized" away by Godresulting in the deaths of innocent passengers and bystanders all over the world.
What kind of God is that?
In his recent book, Revelation Unveiled, Tim LaHaye attempts to prove that the Bible teaches a "rapture." LaHaye begins his "proof" by citing Revelation 4:12. But he quickly acknowledges: "The rapture of the church is not explicitly taught in Revelation 4" (p. 100). Amen!
Can we find, in that passage of Scripture, any indication of a "rapture"? No! Read it for yourself: "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this. Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne" (Revelation 4:12).
This obviously describes the Apostle John being taken "in the spirit"probably through a powerful visionto the very throne of God in the third heaven. LaHaye somehow tries to reason that the Apostle John represents the Churchalthough the Bible never remotely hints of any such representation! Rather, the Bible always represents the Church as a womanthe affianced bride of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:12; Ephesians 5:2224).
LaHaye offers another argument for the rapture theory: "The absence of any mention of the Church in the rest of Revelation indicates that it is not on the earth during the Tribulation. There are sixteen references to the Church in Revelation 13, whereas chapters 618, which cover the Tribulation, do not mention the Church once" (Revelation Unveiled, p. 100). This is indeed a brazen statement, for the entire chapter of Revelation 12 is talking about the Churchand Revelation 19:79 clearly discusses the Churchs coming marriage to Jesus Christ, as we will discuss later.
Soon, LaHaye gets to the primary biblical passage on which all proponents of the rapture theory rely. He writes: "The Apostle Paul was the special writer God chose to reveal to the Church the wonderful details of the rapture, when all Christians, both the dead and the living, will be caught up (or raptured) to heaven to be with Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:1617)" (p. 101; emphasis ours).
What "wonderful details" are given in these two verses that should prove the rapture theory? Let us study the entire context of this passage: "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thessalonians 4:131 Cool .

breytonhartge SG

What Did Paul REALLY Say?

The Apostle Paul is here comforting the Thessalonian brethren about their fellow Christians who had recently "fallen asleep"who had died. He said that God will bring with Him (with Christ) "those who sleep in Jesus." He then said: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first" (v. 16). Revelation 8 and 9 clearly describe the "trumpet plagues" of God, and the awesome destruction they will cause over the entire earth. Then Revelation 11:15 tells us: "Then the seventh angel sounded: and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" So Christ does not "sneak" back to earth to secretly "rapture" His saints away to heaven. Rather, He returns at the end of the most awesome, earth-shaking events in historyevents that are felt and seen by everyone!
Again, the Apostle Paul himself tells us regarding Christs Second Coming: "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changedin a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:5152). So please get this one key fact straight: the saints of Godliving or deadare not raised or changed until after the powerful "last trumpet" has sounded. This basic fact alone completely obliterates the entire "rapture theory"!
Jesus Christ clearly describes, in Matthew 24:333, the order of events preceding His Second Coming. Please read those verses very carefully! First, Jesus describes the false prophets who would arise and deceive the "many" (v. 5). Then, He describes war, famine, pestilence and earthquakes that would follow. Does Jesus then tell us that His saints will escape all this? No! Rather, Jesus tells us: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My names sake" (v. 9). Many true Christians will be martyred before Christ returnsnot "raptured" off to heaven!
Then Jesus predicts the Great Tribulation, which is so awful that "all flesh" would perish unless God intervened (vv. 2122). Then verse 29 tells us: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." The awesome heavenly "signs" come next, and then the glorious return of Jesus Christ at the "great sound of a trumpet" (v. 31) as all the saints are gathered to Christ and join Him in descending to the Mount of Olives. "Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:34). Finally, Zechariah was inspired to tell us: "And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall beThe Lord is one, and His name one" (v. 9).
By carelessly assuming that the Apostle John represents the Church, by carefully bypassing the obvious and consistent meaning of the "last trumpet" and by using other devices, LaHaye is able to construct a platform from which to launch the "rapture theory." But it is totally unbiblical and unprovable. Where, then, did this confused theory originate?

breytonhartge SG

Origin of the Rapture Theory

Virtually all scholars acknowledge that the rapture theory was basically unknown and untaught until a man named John Nelson Darby came along. Darby was founder of the Plymouth Brethren Church. He described a system of biblical interpretation called "dispensationalism." This unusual scheme theorized that God has different rules for different groups at various times in human history. Darby taught that God had a "law" for the Jews, but "grace" for the Church.
Later, Darbys ideas were refined and made popular by C. I. Scofield, who authored the Scofield Reference Bible. From this source, Protestant evangelicals became enamored with these teachings, even though they are so blatantly unscriptural.
In an effort to find earlier origins for the rapture theory, LaHaye cites a number of vague references that go back in time long before Darby. For instance, LaHaye quotes from the writings of one Pseudo-Ephrem, yet admits that it is difficult to know who this man really was or when he wrote. Here is the quote from "Pseudo-Ephrem" used in LaHayes book, Revelation Unveiled: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. [emphasis mine]" (p. 110).
Please note that this allegedly ancient quote mentions no biblical reference to validate these ideas, and certainly does not mention the word "rapture." Another vague and even earlier quote LaHaye employs (p. 111) is from Victorinus, a Roman Catholic bishop, as early as 270ad. In a commentary on Revelation, Victorinus was discussing how Gods people might be delivered from the plagues brought on by the two witnesses, described in Revelation 11. LaHaye states: "In his commentary on Revelation, he compared the plagues of that period with the plagues of Leviticus and then said, These shall be in the last time, when the church shall have gone out of the midst. Obviously Bishop Victorinus of Petau, a brilliant Bible scholar living in the third century, saw the church departing before the plagues during the time of Gods wrath, which from his commentary on Revelation 11 he took to be seven years. (They) shall have gone out of the midst was his way of describing the Rapture of the Church."
What does this quote from an ancient writer tell us about the rapture theory?
Nothing.
This quote says absolutely nothing about a "rapture." It only surmises that Gods peoplesomehow, some waywould have gone out of the "midst" of this dangerous situation. By assuming that this ancient writer was referring to the rapture, LaHaye manages to put words into the mouth of Bishop Victorinus!
But is there a genuine way of escape for Gods people during the coming Great Tribulation? What does the Bible itself clearly teach?

breytonhartge SG

A Place of Safety

The Bible plainly teaches that God will provide a Place of Safety"a place prepared by God" (Revelation 12:6)for His people during the coming Great Tribulation. But this will not involve a secret "rapture," and the faithful saints of God will not go off to heaven. Rather, God will supernaturally protect them in a place right here on this earth.
Describing the traumatic events taking place just before the Great Tribulation, Jesus told His followers: "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:2021). Jesus never spoke of a rapture, but rather of the "flight" of His people. Note that we should pray that this flight to safety would not occur on Gods Sabbath, for this coming flight will involve a degree of physical effort and stressas did ancient Israels flight from Egypt. If a supernatural "rapture" were involved, there would be no concern about the Sabbath or about the danger of traveling during the winter. That should be very clear.
Later, Christ inspired the Apostle John to write in detail about the true Church being taken to a Place of Safety here on earth. Please study Revelation 12 carefully so that no one will be able to confuse you about this matter! In Revelation 12, Jesus reveals to John a vision of a "woman"Israelwho brought forth the Messiah (vv. 12). Then Satan appears as a dragon, ready to "devour her Child as soon as it was born" (v. 4). Christ, the "male child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" (v. 5) is then caught up to Gods throne in this powerful vision.
Next (v. 6) the "woman"now, clearly, the New Testament Church of Godhas to flee to the "wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God." You can easily prove to yourself that heaven is never called a "wilderness"! Rather, this passage of scripture is describing the flight of Gods true Church from the centralized areas of the Roman Empireand from the persecutions of the great false churchto the "wilderness" area of the Italian and Swiss Alps from 554 until 1814ad! For, in the "day for a year" understanding of biblical prophecy (see Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34) this would involve a 1,260-year period extending from the rise of the Roman Emperor Justinian in 554 to the removal of the final Holy Roman Emperor, Napoleon, in 1814. It was during this 1,260-year period that true, Bible-believing Christians were in the greatest physical danger from this foul system which God calls "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Revelation 17:5).

breytonhartge SG

The Great Tribulation Begins

Then, at the very time of the end, a spiritual war breaks out between Satan and his demons and the angels of God. This awesome spiritual war will probably take place within the next several years! Satan is defeated and is "cast to the earth having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time" (12:912). Suddenly, inexplicably, an evil spirit will descend upon the area of the Beast Power in Europe and upon the leaders of the false church. Shortly, they will begin in earnest to plan the destruction of the United States, Canada and Britain! And they will swiftly begin to crack down on anyone who dares to preach the real Truth of the Bible. This will be the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
At this point, John writes that Satan "persecuted the woman"now, clearly, the faithful New Testament Church of God (vv. 1316). As in the typical fulfillment described in verse 6, the Church once again is guided by God to flee to a Place of Safety here on earth. For "the earth helped the woman, and swallowed up the flood which the Dragon (Satan, v. 9) had spewed out of his mouth" (v. 16).
Seeing the truly zealous Christians being taken to a Place of Safety where he can no longer get at them, Satan is "enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (v. 17). So those weak, lukewarm Christians "left behind" at this point are horribly persecuted by Satan the Devil and his minions.
Some ministers attempt to apply verse 17 to the Jewish people. But this entire chapter is clearly talking about the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16)ancient Israel at first (Revelation 12:14), and then the faithful New Testament Church of Godwhich during the Dark Ages was led by God to flee from the Holy Roman Empire during many persecutions, including the Inquisition (v. 6). Beloved as they are, the Jews do not have and do not follow the "testimony" of Jesus Christ (v. 17). So this final "flight" to safety absolutely applies to Gods true Church!
Near the end of His ministry, Jesus Christ gave this vital instruction to His people: "Watch therefore and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36). Very few professing Christians are obeying this commandment from the Son of God! For most people attend churches where biblical prophecy is seldom discussed and certainly not understood. They do not know what to "watch" forand may have no interest in doing so. Frankly, most churchgoers today do not know how to pray. And they certainly do not "cry out day and night" to God as Jesus said His "elect" would do (Luke 18:7). Rather, the majority of Gods own people are influencedin this final, Laodicean age of the Churchto be "lukewarm." And the living Jesus Christ speaks powerfully to this attitude: "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth" (Revelation 3:1516). Apparently, lukewarm, professing Christians will be cast right into the middle of the Great Tribulation! (vv. 1719). They have not been willing to present their bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1) and fully surrender to let Jesus Christ live His obedient life in them, soas the Great Tribulation beginsGod will not protect them and they will finally be forced to choose between total surrender to God or everlasting death in the Lake of Fire.
But Gods faithful, genuinely obedient children will be protected supernaturally in a place here on earth. God describes the way of life of His faithful people: "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). Just as His true Church is described in Revelation 12:17 as a commandment-keeping Church, so Gods individual saints obey the Ten Commandments as a way of lifeand they do not succumb to the siren song of so many ministers that Gods spiritual law was "done away" or "nailed to the cross." The Bible is extremely plain on this!
So, if you wish the divine protection of Almighty God in the traumatic months and years just ahead, be assured that it does not lie in getting all hyped up about being suddenly "raptured" off to heaven at any moment. Rather, as Gods Word makes clear, our Creator will guide His faithful Church to know when and where to flee just before the Great Tribulation begins. They will be supernaturally protected in a place of Gods choosing here on earth. Then, after the Great Tribulation, the "last trumpet" will sound, "for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:52; cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:1317).
There will be no "secret rapture" of the saints. The powerful trumpet blast of God will shake the earth before the saints of God arise! May God help you and your loved ones understand and be willing to surrender to the living Jesus Christ so that He may live His obedient life in you through the power of the Holy Spirit. As the Apostle Paul was inspired to tell us: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me" (Galatians 2:20).
Through Christ in you, may you truly learn to walk with God and have the genuine protection which Almighty God clearly promises for His true saints.

Ironside SG

hey brother Brey, thanks for posting the Covenant theology side of the debate. Very Happy

[i can't help it , before i make a public temporary farewell........i must say something about Dispensational theology versus Covenant Theology...i just can't help it.....even in school this is my favorite topic in theology Smile ]

Dispensational theology versus covenant theology.

just like Calvinism versus Arminianism and etc. here we have the viewpoints of the Covenant camp. Covenants deny the pre-trib Rapture [they are post-trib]. Classic Dispensationalism is pre-trib.

i once embraced covenant theology but found dispensationlism more tenable and credible................

Dispensationalism and covenantalism have been contending for the last one hundred years now approxiately. During the last century...........Dispensationalism has won the battle......this maybe due to the regathering of the nation Israel in 1948 where the Dispensationalist were proven corrrect. many turned and embraced Dispensationalism.

one of the major, major weaknesses of covenant theology is its allegorization and spiritualization of the prophetic portions of Scriptures.

it [covenant theology] denies any future restoration of Israel in the land of promise. No more future for the Jews in that land promised by God to Abraham. [they were proven wrong in 1948]

Good thing the American leaders believed in the dispensational doctrine that Israel will still have a future in God's program.........that's why America is supporting Israel.......[one of the major influences dispensationalism has bought to the nation Israel right now.]

To cite samples of its spiritualization and allegorization:

it [covenant theology] makes the temple prophesied in Ezekiel chapters 40-48 as not having fulfillment in the future........because Ezekiel chapter 40-48 is just a prophesy about the Church!!!!! [read Ezekiel 40-48 see for yourself if you can accept their far out interpretation].

however, this is not an essential doctrine.........this is just about systems of interpretation [dispensational and covenantalism]..........by the way a new theology is emerging right now.......it is called Progressive Dispensationalism.

it's a hybrid betwwen the two.

How did dispensationalism developed? it developed because of the consistent application of plain and normal interpretation of the Bible from Genesis to REvalation.

Even covenant scholars admit this fact that if you consistently interpret the Bible plainly and normally [face value interpretation] from Genesis to REvation.....one would inevitably become dispensational in theology.

To the dispensationalist, Israel in the Old testament prophecies refers to the nation Israel. To the Covenants, Israel in the Old TEstament refers to the Church now where Gentiles and Jews are in one body.

Due to this plain and normal interpretation of the Bible from Genesis to REvelation, a theology is formed that Israel is not the Church and the Church is not Israel. Due to this distinction [derived from plain and normal interpretation of Scriputural passages] dispensationalist recognize a plan of God for two distinct entities [Israel and the Church] Israel is to be regathered back to the land of Israel and the Church Raptured.

i think that should be all for now.... see you guys..............i got to rest my eyes...i'm beginning to see floaters............hope to hear from you two to three weeks from now. keep the faith.

P.S. keep me in your prayers brother Brey.... i soo need it.

thanks.

Repented John 2 SG

I also agree with ironside. I support the dispensational theory. How can anyone be protected on earth during the Antichrist's reign? Enoch was raptured. Enoch was a type of the church. Noah was a type of the Jews being protected from the judgement. This is the remnant that will escape the Antichrist after two thirds of the Jews are killed. I forgot where are all the verses but it's on the web. The church wasnt mentioned after chap 4 of Rev. until later. The vision John saw in heaven consists of the 24 elders. These 24 elders represent the Jewish & Gentile church in heaven (12 tribes + 12 Apostles). How can they receive their crowns if they have not been raptured & rewarded by Jesus already? They cast their crowns at the feet of God remember? They sang a song of redemption. Look up Rev chap 4 for their song.

The saints who receive Christ after the rapture will form the trib saints. These are the ones who have come out of the Great Trib. by being martyred. People can still be saved then. The Holy Spirit can still work like the olden days before the Pentecost outpouring in Acts. Like in times of David & Samson & Moses etc. Who says the Holy Spirit is taken out & can't work?

There are so many arguments & very strong ones for the pre trib rapture. I can't reproduce them here. Cannot remember & too long. I urge everyone including post tribbers to take a look instead of just dismissing it. A search of the web will do just fine.

Repented John 2 SG

Ok i ask you some more. Can a Christian who is not watching be raptured up?

Will children be raptured up regardless of faith?

Can a person who doesn't profess he is a Christian but leads a Christian life internally be raptured up?

Can a Christian who has stopped bible reading, praying, going to church completely be raptured up?

Can a backslided Christian be raptured up?

Can someone other than a Christian be raptured up?

Will there be a pretrib rapture or post trib one?

Who are the five virgins left outside the bridegroom's house in the parable of the ten virgins?

Who are those whom the Lord said 'i never knew you' in the verse where they said 'Lord, Lord'?

Chin Eng SG

Wah lau.....

Can a Christian who is not watching be raptured up?
Watching what, TV? Laughing Is watching out for rapture a prerequisite?

Will children be raptured up regardless of faith?
No, at least I don't think so. Rapture are for those who has salvation. It is believed by some theologians that children who has not come to the age of accountability will not be doomed to eternal punishment, but this has nothing to do with rapture

Can a person who doesn't profess he is a Christian but leads a Christian life internally be raptured up?
Has the person received Christ as his personal saviour? No one can answer this question but the person himself.

Can a Christian who has stopped bible reading, praying, going to church completely be raptured up?
My opinion.... Salvation and leading a Christian life should be together but not necessary so.... again, I repeat, my opinion.

Can a backslided Christian be raptured up?
Yes, but possibly may be left behind to witness to those who did not believe the first time around.... again my opinion.

Can someone other than a Christian be raptured up?
No. You have somebody in mind?

Will there be a pretrib rapture or post trib one?
Don't know.... don't care.

Who are the five virgins left outside the bridegroom's house in the parable of the ten virgins?
Britney, Christina, Paris, Nicole and Missy Elliot, why?

Who are those whom the Lord said 'i never knew you' in the verse where they said 'Lord, Lord'?
People, who in their life, thought they were doing the Lord's work or pretending to be doing the Lord's work?

M©+square SG

Laughing

I sense agony....come to AA and take refuge.

Cheers::gum pei

Repented John 2 SG

Thanks for taking the time to answer. Smile

Repented John 2 SG

Pls click link below for an interesting read abt prophetic events for 2006 & beyond. The Lord Jesus is coming soon! Lift up your heads to the coming King, bow before Him & adore Him sing!

http://www.revelation13.net/calendar.html

vince69 SG

Its this a Christian Site? cause I really have my doubts about it, actually more like uncomfortable the way the author uses "New Age, Bible prophecy, King James version Bible Code, and astrology predictions of world events " combination.
Question

Repented John 2 SG

I think it's more like a new age Christian site not totally Christian. Like what you said, he uses all the above for prediction like Nostradamus etc. So occultic. Interesting to me cos even the devil knows his time is near. I dont know what u think abt bible codes btw. Christian websites like raptureready.com says that this march many things going to happen to the world so coincides with his views. I myself feel strongly some crises will happen to US hence to the world. Maybe an economic crises or bird flu crises. Keep watching bro.

vince69 SG

Personally feel that the use Bible codes are like reading between the lines, and often using a random seq to find the characters/words to form a statement (quite frankly almost any statement/words can be form if one looks hard enough).

As for this site, after looking at it a few more times, I can conclude that its not a christian site at all (new age maybe). Smile

God Bless

Chin Eng SG

I concur. It's at best a rojak theology, at worst a heretical site.

dumbdumb! SG

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Mr. Green nothing simpler than that right?