Originally posted by SingaporeMacross
Biblical evidence for Penance
I make a distinction between eternal punishment and temporal
punishment.
We may be saved from eternal damnation, but we need to repair the
effects which our sins have caused. This is what Penance is all
about. The thief who was crucified next to Jesus was forgiven by
Him and promised eternal life. But Jesus still let him hang next to
him to die. The thief still had to pay for his earthly crime.
Even in the OT we see this. God forgave Moses, but he never entered
the Promised Land because he killed one of his own people. God
forgave King David, but God still let King Davids son die.
Penance is a form of discipline that we must accept. Dare we treat
his grace as cheap? Surely some thanksgiving is in order?
Hebrews 12:5-11
5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses
you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For
what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not
disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are
illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had
human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How
much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!
10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought
best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his
holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful.
Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace
for those who have been trained by it.
Firstly, you make the distinction of eternal sin vs temporal
sin. Which if I understand correctly is the distinguishing of
original sin vs personal sin. The bible makes no such distinction,
sin is sin, whether personal or original.
To take this further, in RC doctrine, personal sin can be mortal or
venial. Mortal sin supposedly cutting off the sinner from God and
venial sin is one which does not meet the conditions for a mortal
sin. My question is thus this, how do you term that one sin is
greater than the other? All sin is sin and all sin will lead to
death be they mortal or venial.
The problem here is not the distinguishing between temporal and
eternal sin, but by the RC church claiming the need to do works for
sin. If you sin, you sin, just confess and you will be forgiven. It
has always been stated in the bible that we do not have forgiveness
of sin through works. It says in Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you
have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is
the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Next, the examples that you have quoted here are totally off the
mark. I say this because
1)If what happened to Moses was a form of discipline as a form of
penance as you say, then Moses would have entered the promised land
as he now had no more sin. In Numbers 20:7-13, in particular verse
12. It clearly states there that Moses did not enter the promised
land because he did not believe and because of his disobedience to
God and not because he killed a man. It is this specific incident
that kept Moses out of the promised land. The other reason why God
would not have allowed Moses to enter the promised land from a
rabbinical view is that it was because of the sin of the unbelief
of the spies sent to scout the land.
2)What happened to Moses and King David was a result of their sin,
but not penance for their sin. The consequences of sin is
death.
The verse you quoted in the bible to support penance is totally off
the mark as well. If you read Hebrews 12: 5-11 carefully, it talks
about:
1)It specifically talks about the Lords discipline. Since when did
God give the priests the authority to discipline man? The priest
like I said before, is not a judge or someone who gives discipline.
The role of the priest is to plead for the people before God.
2)It says endure hardship as discipline, but it does not say endure
penance as discipline. Also the discipline we receive is though
endurance of the consequences of our sin. Furthermore, the hardship
here could also mean trials and testing etc to perfect our
character.
Penance is described in the Oxford dictionary of current English
as:
1)act of self-punishment as reparation for sin
2)a sacrament including confession of and absolution for sin and
penalty imposed esp. by a priest for a sin.
In the AOC para 1491 The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting
in three actions of the penitent and the priest's absolution. The
penitent's acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to
the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of
reparation.
According to "The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 1,
1969, p. 141, "Penance is a sacrament by which sins committed after
baptism are forgiven." It goes on to state in question 171 that in
order to receive the sacrament of penance worthily the Roman
Catholic must first, examine his conscience; second, be sorry for
his sins; third, make up his mind not to sin again; fourth, confess
his sins to the priest; and fifth, be willing to do the penance the
priest gives them to do.
According to the bible:
"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption
which is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24).
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was
counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who
justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
(Rom. 4:5).
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall
be saved from the wrath of God through Him," (Rom. 5:9).
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works,
otherwise grace is no longer grace" (Rom. 11:6).
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:
.
From the above, we see that
1)The sacrament of penance is a works based means of forgiveness of
sin. This is a contradiction of scripture as stated above.
2)A right relationship with God is achieved through our faith in
Jesus and not through works or a combination of faith and works.
Isaiah 64:6 states that our works are nothing more than filthy
rags.
It is very clear from the bible that works of any kind will never
be a means of being right with God.
The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 2, 1969, p. 199
says, "The priest gives us a penance after confession that we may
make some atonement to God for our sins, receive help to avoid them
in the future, and make some satisfaction for the temporal
punishment due to them."
This is wrong because it focuses the atonement for sins not on
Jesus work on the cross, but on the works of the individual via
penance.
The bible says:
"how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal
Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your
conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Rom.
9:14).
"but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we
have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son
cleanses us from all sin," (1 John 1:7).
Thus we see that this sacrament of penance is in direct
contradiction to the bible and is wrong because it uses the works
that a person does to make right his relationship with God. I will
say again, this was never the case in the bible.
The New Saint Joseph Baltimore catechism, Vol. 2, 1969, p. 199 says
that penance (some work you do) makes atonement for sins.
What does the word atonement mean?
According to the Oxford dictionary of current English, atonement is
described as expiation by Christ of mankinds sins or the
reconciliation of two estranged parties.
According to the Harpers Bible Dictionary, atonement is "the means
by which the guilt-punishment chain produced by violation of Gods
will is broken, as well as the resulting state of reconciliation
(at-onement) with God."
To get the original context of atonement for sins, we look to the
OT. In the OT, the atonement for sins was through a priest making
sacrifices for sin. See Leviticus 4:20 and Leviticus 4:26 also see
Leviticus 6:7. This OT system is not in place today because Christ
came to die for us to offer a single eternal sacrifice see Heb
10:10. In the OT, the atonement for sins was made through the
priest offering sacrifices and not dictating penance. Now that
Jesus has come, He is the atoning sacrifice for us.
"And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we
might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you
were healed," (1 Pet. 2:24).
"When He had made purification of sins..." (Heb. 1:3).
"Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things,
that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things
pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the
people," (Heb. 2:17).
"By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the
body of Jesus Christ once for all, 11 And every priest stands daily
ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which
can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice
for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God," (Heb.
10:10-11).
It is by faith alone in Christ alone in his work alone that makes
us right with God. There is no way that anyone is able to remove
his sin through any of his sin-stained efforts. The Roman Catholic
Church, because it adds works to the finished work of Christ in
order to be made right with God, thus preaches a false
gospel.
"But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you
a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be
accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is
preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let
him be accursed," (Gal. 1:8-9).
