Continue from Speaker's Corner

last SG · 2005-07-30T10:17:39+00:00

is it not hypocrisy if, ultimately, secular humanism is shoved down people’s throat?

earthlings73 SG

yup.. back in the 70s.. homosexuality has been classified as a mental disorder in DSM.. but then, therapies based on psychiatric treatment had received poor "recovery rates".. since then, homosexuality has gradually been removed as a psychological mental disorder..

these days, the psychological/psychiatry profession is more inclined towards "affirmative therapy".. they recognise that it's not categorically wrong to be gay.. however, they also recognise the poorer mental wellbeing of gays because of social stigmisation..

most "orthodox" psychologists/psychiatrists these days work on helping gays to cope with the inferiority complex instead of "changing orientation"..

[email protected] SG

nah. i think its more like, u just want to believe it must be nuture, not nature, and that u're unwilling to believe it could be otherwise. For me, it was more than a "few episodes" its more like all the reports and documentries i've seen over 2 or 3 years, which adds up to more than a "few". Rolling Eyes But for u, speaking based on ignorance, u wouldn't care anyway.

[email protected] SG

forget it. no use reasoning with logic or evidence with them. If they don't wish to believe, nothing short of God himself telling them homosexuality is down to nature will convince them. These people hardly listen to logic. If it ain't from the Bible, it can't enter their heads.

shade343 SG

31st July 2005

Man's character gets transformed into good or bad depending on his company. Noble company bestows noble feelings and bad company gives rise to evil traits. Your speech and conduct are based on your feelings. You deserve to be called a human being only when you develop good feelings. Form alone does not constitute a human being. A true human being is one who embodies good habits, helps ever and hurts never. You should not merely be an Aakara Manava (human in form); you should become an Aachara Manava (human in conduct). Speak good, see good, do good and be good. Divinity will manifest in you only when your conduct is good.

- BABA

Icemoon SG

I am willing to believe it could be otherwise. But I'm not sufficiently convinced yet.

Icemoon SG

Why will we wish to believe? Is science so pathetic we need to wish to believe? Science demands that we accept, if the evidence is rock solid.

Wait .. is the evidence rock solid yet?

Perhaps if the homo gene is found, then the evidence will be rock solid.

Icemoon SG

what kind of reports do you read? What kind of journals?

earthlings73 SG

but science had also not demonstrated that gays are caused by the environment too.. Razz

Icemoon SG

science should be able to demonstrate some gays are caused by environment?

ok lah .. let's just see on the fence and be skeptical of any claim put forth by both camps.

earthlings73 SG

one of the best piece of evidence is the islamic countries whereby gays are punishable by execution.. Razz you can still find gays there..

my point is still simply "why condemn someone who has not yet been found guilty?"

Icemoon SG

aiyoh .. talking about intolerance .. aren’t they even worse?

earthlings73 SG

pretty sad indeed.. but then, 2 wrongs don't make 1 right..

i guess you had missed out on the great debate when this thread was still in speaker's corner..

in US and other Christian countries, you can find hate crimes against gays.. Yah, these people are not executed by the government but then you have our regular citizens killing gays stating that it's rightful to do so based on the Bible..

and singaporemacross also highlighted that there was indeed a teaching within the catholics that encouraged tolerance.. but somehow, most priests do not follow such a teaching..

as a singaporean, we are usually sheltered from events happening within the middle east.. however, practices happening in US/Europe will affect us in a more direct way.. Hence, in my opinion, the intolerance of Christianity on this issue had a more direct impact on a gay Singaporean like me than let's say a policy in the Middle East..

[email protected] SG

lets see, varied mags. economist, times, newsweek(all picked up randomly), national geographic(subscription), several science ones which i pick up randomly as well. I didn't go looking specifically for such reports. They found me, and I feel pretty convinced. If u don't feel convinced yet, then wait for more evidence to be found. But please don't come telling me that just because it has not enuf evidence for u to be convinced, it must be false ok?

[email protected] SG

Very much worse. But such laws which states that homosexuality is punishable by death are set by humans, not the religion. And these humans r the ones who r intolerant.

stupidissmart SG

Your claim can be disputed. If this snake so power liao still the dumbest .. then I think human can't have dominion over the animals liao.

First, u still can't show anything tat tis snake is special compared to others. Second the snake is intentionally made smart. In fact perhaps before man eat the fruit of wisdom, maybe the snake r smarter than men. U can't prove tis poitn wrong either.

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made

I think the onus is on you to show me all snakes can talk. After all, we can't communicate with snakes today and I reserve the right to place the onus on you since reality is on my side. Whatever theory you come out with to explain why we can't talk to snake is beside the point, to prove these theories is your business also.

Lets put it tis way. I don't believe in any part of the bible and I don't believe garden of eden exists. If u wanna compared with today, then I might as well challenge u to show me the location of the garden of eden and the rest of the story and prove tatthe bible is wrong. In the bible, the snakes do talk. In the bible it does not say tat particular snake is special. If u find tat the snakes can't talk now, it just meant tat the bible is ridiculously wrong. However since we r arguing from the theological aspect o the bible, u should produce evidence from the bible itself.

And don't be a dumbass tell me what eat fruit then become cannot talk. Hello .. that is supposed to be the fruit of wisdom, not fruit to become deaf and dumb.

I told u it is because of the curse by god after, making snake walk on belly and men and snake become enemies then they canot communicate. It is nothign to do with the fruit if u read carefully. Then it made perfect sense isn't it ? Snake and men can communicate, then they get cursed to be enemies then they ceased communication. Is tat too hard for u to understand

Yah you are right. But I've shown he could communicate to God via another verse. So what's your point?

Lets putit tis way then. God is omni potent. Snakes can communicate (with eve) Therefore if god is really all-powerful, he could talk with anything comunicatable. Or unless u r gonan say god is not all-powerful and eve has more power than god over talking with snakes?

On the other hand, using your own argument back on you, you can't shown me they have not been breathed life into the dust. Where is the evidence? Show me show me.

I think u should be the one to show me evidence sicne u r the one tat claim animals

It is not about fruit of wisdom, but that animals lack the conscious or spirit put in human by God. God breathed into mankind the neshamat, something not mentioned in the creation of animals. Animals are just nefesh chayah, or living being, or soul if you like

U r claiming tis point first. U should show me the evidence and not me to show u otherwise.

Icemoon SG

you also cannot show this snake is like all other snakes. I can't prove the point wrong, and that point remains your opinion, not really an argument as you have nothing concrete to back it up.

In the bible, the snakes do talk. In the bible it does not say tat particular snake is special.

which verse say that snakes do talk? in the bible, it does not say that particular snake is not special either.

Moreover isn't it strange this snake seems to know so much? I wonder whether it ate before another fruit of wisdom .. haha. Are you saying all snakes know so much, since you claim this snake is just like the rest.

If u find tat the snakes can't talk now, it just meant tat the bible is ridiculously wrong.

this is a sweeping conclusion. Maybe only that particular serpent was able to talk? At least the bible shows one talking serpent and you can't dispute that. Once again, we never find Adam talking to a platoon of vipers.

I told u it is because of the curse by god after, making snake walk on belly and men and snake become enemies then they canot communicate.

where is the evidence?

Then it made perfect sense isn't it ? Snake and men can communicate, then they get cursed to be enemies then they ceased communication. Is tat too hard for u to understand

This is not even remotely suggested in the bible. Moreover, if you maintain that all animals could talk, then why couldn't we talk to other animals now? We became enemey to all animals?

Lets putit tis way then. God is omni potent. Snakes can communicate (with eve) Therefore if god is really all-powerful, he could talk with anything comunicatable.

I have no dispute with this sentence. But what were we arguing actually?

U r claiming tis point first. U should show me the evidence and not me to show u otherwise.

The bible mentions about the neshamat chayim in human but only the nefesh chayah in animals. It is written very clearly.

stupidissmart SG

you also cannot show this snake is like all other snakes. I can't prove the point wrong, and that point remains your opinion, not really an argument as you have nothing concrete to back it up.

U see, I show u some evidence, if u wanna prove it wrong u should show me back some evidence on why u find it doubtful. I show u a talking snake. U should not expect tis snake to be so special compared with the rest of the snake tat only he can communicate while the other is a few million years of revolution behind and cannot communicate. They r all made in the same day isn't it ? If tat snake is so special then it should be mentioned in the bible to be a special one. The onus of proving tat the snake is special lies on u, not me.

which verse say that snakes do talk? in the bible, it does not say that particular snake is not special either.

It says the snake is special and it show an ordinary snake talking. If u think tat the snake is not special, trhen u should prove it.

Moreover isn't it strange this snake seems to know so much? I wonder whether it ate before another fruit of wisdom .. haha. Are you saying all snakes know so much, since you claim this snake is just like the rest.

I am saying all the snakes then can communicate. he did not do a very smart thing either and he is in fact, pretty dumb to taut eve to eat the fruit and get punished for it as well. He did not gain anything from tis experience. Why do u say he knows so much ?

this is a sweeping conclusion. Maybe only that particular serpent was able to talk? At least the bible shows one talking serpent and you can't dispute that. Once again, we never find Adam talking to a platoon of vipers.

If there is a talking snake, it shows tat snakes can talk then. In fact u do not know is there a platoon of snakes in the first place. If u see carefully, God never say tat land dwellign animals should go forth and multiply. He mention tat explicitly to birds and sea creatures only. Why don't u prove to me there is a platoon of snakes in the first place. Maybe he is the only snake then, much like adam and eve r the only men. Show me there exists a platoon of snakes first.

where is the evidence?

And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

So it can be possible tat to place eminity, the best way is to cease communication. Much like wat god do to create misunderstanding among men in tower of babel

This is not even remotely suggested in the bible. Moreover, if you maintain that all animals could talk, then why couldn't we talk to other animals now? We became enemey to all animals?

Maybe the other animals is not as crafty as the snake. They can't communicate

The bible mentions about the neshamat chayim in human but only the nefesh chayah in animals. It is written very clearly

Written where ?

Icemoon SG

evidence of what?

It says the snake is special and it show an ordinary snake talking. If u think tat the snake is not special, trhen u should prove it.

Allow me to quote Gen 3:1 (NIV) - Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

The verse tells us the serpent was more crafty and not "serpents were more crafty". And the "he" obviously refers to one serpent, that crafty serpent in the front part.

I am saying all the snakes then can communicate.

and your proof?

he did not do a very smart thing either and he is in fact, pretty dumb to taut eve to eat the fruit and get punished for it as well. He did not gain anything from tis experience. Why do u say he knows so much ?

The snake had no foreknowledge and did not know he would be punished.

He knows so much .. well .. how come the snake knew the nature of the fruit? He even knew the reason behind God's warning.

If there is a talking snake, it shows tat snakes can talk then.

well .. not surprised this sentence comes from someone who fail his logic 101 course. Wink Wah leow eh .. anyone can help me tell this fellow what fallacy is that?

Show me there exists a platoon of snakes first.

you are the one who should be showing me, to boost your claim all snakes can talk. why would I need to show you there exists a platoon of snakes? how does it help my argument?

So it can be possible tat to place eminity, the best way is to cease communication. Much like wat god do to create misunderstanding among men in tower of babel

so even you admit that is only your opinion? that the reason why we can't talk with snakes is 'cos we are enemies?

Maybe the other animals is not as crafty as the snake. They can't communicate

huh .. what are you trying to say here?

Written where ?

the nefesh chayah and neshamat chayim are in the Hebrew Bible. In English, it is a soul vs. spirit distinction, if you like.

stupidissmart SG

I think u get a wrong conclusion. animals don't have a religion doesn't means human must have In fact animals, who do not eat the fruit of wisdom and is suppose to be the purest state defined by god do not even pray or worship him. sn't tat a sign tat men shouldn't have a religion as well

aiyoh .. if you want to argue it the religious way .. please go and study the religious text before you shoot!

It is not about fruit of wisdom, but that animals lack the conscious or spirit put in human by God. God breathed into mankind the neshamat, something not mentioned in the creation of animals. Animals are just nefesh chayah, or living being, or soul if you like

I think u r drifiting far away fromt he original discussion. All the while it boils down to the above statement made by u. U claim tat god breath into mankind neshamat.

1. U fail to prove tat God do not breath anything to the animals. U can't say tat men were special based on the line tat god breath life into dust because u do not know how god create the other animals. U say men is special, then u have to prove it.

if you want to argue it your way, it is still dumb.

You know why .. 'cos the bible did record for us what happened before they ate the fruit.

And before they ate the fruit they already could talk to God. So now they were same state as animals but could talk to God but animals were not shown to talk to God.

So what's your argument now?

Then u came up with tis argument tat animals were not shown to talk to god.

I manage to prove the following

1) Snake do talk to men
2) snake is an animal
3) tat is before they eat the fruit of wisdom
4) god should be more powerful than men
5) if men could speak with snake, god should have more power than men and can communicate with snakes as well. SO it proves tat u r wrong tat animals can't talk with god. In fact u agree the above in the sentence below

Lets putit tis way then. God is omni potent. Snakes can communicate (with eve) Therefore if god is really all-powerful, he could talk with anything comunicatable.

I have no dispute with this sentence. But what were we arguing actually?

U claim tat tis snake is unique, however u can't show any evidence tat it is unique, neither can u show tat there r a lot of snakes to begin with. U don't have any claims to show the above wrong. And the rest of the sh!t u write is just avoiding the question and running away from proving your points. If u can't prove it, then obviously u show u r dumb and comment on something which u have lesser knowledge of. So on no grounds can u say tat animals do not have conscious or spirit because they can speak and have conscious. These r the signs tat u insisted to prove tat animals do not have spirit and it was shown tat u r wrong. So in the end u show all your earlier points r full of errors and tat is wat we r trying to prove till now.

Icemoon SG

Oh yeah and you are the accomplice. You instigated me to drift away and then pretended to be the good guy when I suggested we should all wake up. Laughing

I claimed God breathed into mankind the neshamat .. yes .. do you have problem with my this very specific claim?

U fail to prove tat God do not breath anything to the animals. U can't say tat men were special based on the line tat god breath life into dust because u do not know how god create the other animals. U say men is special, then u have to prove it.

Men is special - this is reality, ever since eden when God told the couple to have dominion over nature. And throughout Bible, it is always God talking to human and human with God. You never read animals talking with God freely, or God shown to be talking with animals freely, except for a miracle. If you want to argue that animals also talk freely with God and vice versa, you have to show it.

It is meaningless to discuss things which do not have a basis in Scripture. You want to think animals are special then go ahead .. I'm not stopping you. But if you want to argue about theology, then I think we need to agree on certain things.

on the other hand, if you take the opposite stand, you have more things to prove, and the onus is on your side. your argument now is you think all animals were breathed the neshamat, which is never explicitly mentioned and so you have to prove it.

I hope we at least agree that humans are breathed the neshamat.

Then u came up with tis argument tat animals were not shown to talk to god.

God can communicate with animals, why not He is all powerful right? But it is not mentioned animals can talk freely with God. Freely as in like Adam and Eve liddat. It is not even mentioned animals know there is God and so on.

What we agree now, I hope, is there existed a snake which was cursed by God. We are not shown the snake talking with God.

1) Snake do talk to men

only that particular snake could talk to men.

2) snake is an animal

I'm ok with this classification. Mr. Green

3) tat is before they eat the fruit of wisdom
4) god should be more powerful than men

agree.

5) if men could speak with snake, god should have more power than men and can communicate with snakes as well. SO it proves tat u r wrong tat animals can't talk with god. In fact u agree the above in the sentence below

Lets putit tis way then. God is omni potent. Snakes can communicate (with eve) Therefore if god is really all-powerful, he could talk with anything comunicatable.

Agree with first sentence.

On your second part, God can communicate with snakes doesn't mean snakes (or animals) can talk to God like Adam and Eve did.

It is like I can tell my parrot or dog to sing or pick the bone. But they can't talk to me.

U claim tat tis snake is unique, however u can't show any evidence tat it is unique, neither can u show tat there r a lot of snakes to begin with. U don't have any claims to show the above wrong.

Do you see the problem your reasoning? 'cos I could very well say the snake is Satan (and you don't have any claims to prove me wrong). Laughing

don't carry on with this rather pointless way of reasoning. You only shoot your own foot this way.

My conclusion is this - let's assume the author of Genesis was sane when he wrote it. Genesis showed us animals and human both had nefesh chayah, but for human beings, the neshamat chayim was mentioned. There is a reason why this (God breathed into us the spirit of life) was mentioned for human - it is to tell us why human beings are special compared to other creations/living things. And we could see that humans are truly special, even after eden or tower of babel. From earliest times men had sought to worship God but till now we not found any concrete signs of that from animals.

SIS, no one is stopping you from thinking animals are special or they are breathed the neshamat or things like that. but if you want to elevate your opinions to arguments, then you need something more.

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