To dumbdumb: carried over from cutepixie's thread

plo30360 SG

rule of the game's pretty simple, you can't buy your way up to heaven, being good, or donating to charities or helping old ladies cross the road, won't get you a ticket to heaven. why? cause you don't know what is the passing mark.

I never said you could buy your way into heaven. And no matter how many good deeds you do, will not be good enough because your sins will outnumber your good deeds.That is why faith in Jesus is required(and of course if you believe in Jesus acts inspired by faith will follow), but for people who do not believe, they still love Jesus when they do good deeds and acts of love for God is love.

what the hell is the catholic way of life? going to church? going to confession? if you don't believe in Jesus and only in Jesus, all that = bullshit

It is clearly obvious that you never did any research at all about the catholic way of life. Catholics believe in Jesus. Who ever told you that the catholic way of life is only going to church and confession?

if going to church makes me a christian, then going to macdonald makes me a big mac. and if u believe u can be a freethinker and buy your way in by doing "good deeds" then u're a bigger big mac than i am.

Going to church does not make a person christian,only when you live a christian life you become a christian. If, person does not know that Jesus is the salvation can he be held accountable for not being a christian?

I do not think God would be so cruel to turn away a good person just because he's not christian.

not that we shouldn't do good, but doing good is after salvation, salvation is salvation, good works are good works, different issues, and shouldn't be brought together.

good works don't give u salvation, only Jesus can, but good works comes and counts after salvation, because God will reward u for every little nice mushy thing you do for others when u go to heaven after u get knocked down by a bus or smth. kidding abt the knocked down part.

Again I'll give a repeated answer:
If, person does not that Jesus is the salvation can he be held accountable for not being a christian?

I do not think God would be so cruel to turn away a good person just because he's not christian.

catholics don't really believe anyone goes to heaven, i think they believe even if u receive Jesus, u still hv to pay for your sins, in pugatory. Not that i believe that la. haha.

I apolgize to Jworld for shamelessly copying your material:

Why do Catholics believe in a place between Heaven and Hell called Purgatory? Where is Purgatory mentioned in the Bible?
The main body of Christians have always believed in the existence of a place between Heaven and Hell where souls go to be punished for lesser sins and to repay the debt of temporal punishment for sins which have been forgiven. Even after Moses was forgiven by God, he was still punished for his sin. (2 Kg. or 2 Sam. 12:13-14). The primitive Church Fathers regarded the doctrine of Purgatory as one of the basic tenets of the Christian faith. St. Augustine, one of the greatest doctors of the Church, said the doctrine of Purgatory "has been received from the Fathers and it is observed by the Universal Church." True, the word "purgatory" does not appear in the Bible, but a place where lesser sins are purged away and the soul is saved "yet so as by fire, "is mentioned. (1 Cor. 3:15). Also, the Bible distinguishes between those who enter Heaven straightaway, calling them "the church of the firstborn"(Heb. 12:23), and those who enter after having undergone a purgation, calling them "the spirits of the just made perfect." (Heb. 12:23). Christ Himself stated: "Amen I say to thee, thou shall not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." (Matt. 5:26). And: "Every idle word that men shall speak, thou shall not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." (Matt 5:26). And: "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment." (Matt. 12:36). These are obviously references to Purgatory. Further, the Second Book of Maccabees (which was dropped from the Scriptures by the Protestant reformers) says: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (2 Mach. 12:46). Ancient Christian tomb inscriptions from the second and third centuries frequently contain and appeal for prayers for the dead. In fact, the custom of praying for the dead, which is meaningless if there is no Purgatory, was universal among Christians for the fifteen centuries preceding the Protestant Reformation.

Furthermore, ordinary justice calls for a place of purgation between Heaven and Hell. Take our own courts of justice, for example. For major crimes a person is executed or sentenced to life imprisonment (Hell); for minor crimes a person is sentenced to temporary imprisonment for punishment and rehabilitation (Purgatory); for no crime at all a person is rewarded with the blessing for free citizenship (Heaven). If a thief steals some money, then regrets his deed and asks the victim for forgiveness, it is quite just for the victim to forgive him yet still insist on restitution. God, who is infinitely just, insists on holy restitution. This is made either in this life, by doing penance (Matt. 3:2; Luke 3:8, 13:3; Apoc. 3:2-3, 19), or in Purgatory.

Also, what Christian is there who, despite his faith in Christ and his sincere attempts to be Christ-like, does not find sin and worldliness still in his heart? "For in many things we all offend." (James 3:2). Yet "there shall not enter into it (the new Jerusalem, Heaven) anything defiled." (Apoc. or Rev. 21:27). In Purgatory the soul is mercifully purified of all sins; there God carries out the work of spiritual purification which most Christians neglected and resisted on earth. It is important to remember that Catholics do not believe that Christ simply covers over their sinful souls, like covering a manure heap with a blanket of snow (Martin Luther's description of God's forgiveness). Rather, Christ insists that we be truly holy and sinless to the core of our souls. "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." ( Matt. 5:48 ). This growth in sinlessness, in Christian virtue and holiness, is of course the work of an entire lifetime (and is possible only through the grace of God). With many this cleansing is completed only in Purgatory. If there is no Purgatory, but only Heaven for the perfect and Hell for the imperfect, then the vast majority of us are hoping in vain for life eternal in Heaven.

Nelstar SG

the argument never stops!

Rolling Eyes

plo30360 SG

but u can buy ur way out of pugatory by donating to the church?

The church has never taught you can buy your way out of purgatory and never will.

[email protected] SG

oh its no wonder the Catholics and Protestants had such a bloody war in North Ireland. Very Happy

dumbdumb! SG

u're pretty much wrong.

http://www.nlbchapel.org/goodpeople.htm

well, about the catholic issue, maybe i'm wrong, not that i really care, cause i'm not one. but about the good people good work things.. read the bible. the answer's there. Rolling Eyes good works alone don't get you anywhere. u said that "you don't think..." but is there a confirmation?

can u show me the verse in the new international bible that God is ok with good works alone?

moses was punished, that was right, that doesn't mean pugatory exists. The bible definitely never suggested there was such a place. we all commit sins, and our we are still punished even though we are saved. so what if you're a christian, u go rob someone, and you still pay for it by doing time in jail. in this world when u're alive. nowhere in the bible suggest that you pay for it after u die.

that's why there is the protestant movement.

For by grace you have been saved through faith;

and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

some of your culture don't come from apostle peter, you noticed that? luthur was the one who dared to speak up. btw i don't come from the line of the luthurans, i'm from the brethern, came from good ol paul. Very Happy

sure, you believe in jesus, the baby jesus? your people saw the image of mother mary and an infant jesus telling u stuff right? i don't have time to quote everything, if you're a catholic you probably know. i'll type in the details later.

but i'd like to point out smth to you, did u ever thought that when your people saw the infant jesus giving u guys instruction, it may not be jesus at all? since jesus is already a grown man in his 30s when he died?

go read this up:

http://www.endtimeinfo.net/Religion/falseprophet.php

Nelstar SG

Laughing

They get into a mess themselves.

plo30360 SG

My first question is this:
Does this mean mean people who are not christians but do good deeds and acts of love are condemmed?

can u show me the verse in the new international bible that God is ok with
good works alone?

Now lets look at it from the Catholic point of view and you will notice catholics also state that faith is required, I will once again shamelessly plagarize from JWorld:

Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation? Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith alone justifies?
Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What our Lord demands is "faith that worketh by charity." (Gal. 5:6). Read Matthew 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity. The first and greatest commandment, as given by Our Lord Himself, is to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the second great commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself. (Mark 12:30-31). When the rich young man asked Our Lord what he must do to gain eternal life, our Lord answered: "Keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:17). Thus, although faith is the beginning, it is not the complete fulfilment of the will of God. Nowhere in the Bible is it written that faith alone justifies. When St. Paul wrote, "For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law," he was referring to works peculiar to the old Jewish Law, and he cited circumcision as an example.

The Catholic Church does not teach that purely human good works are meritorious for salvation; such works are not meritorious for salvation, according to her teaching. Only those good works performed when a person is in the state of grace, that is, as a branch drawing its spiritual life from the Vine which is Christ (John 15:4-6), only these good deeds work toward our salvation, and they do so only by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ. These good works, offered to God by a soul in the state of grace (i.e., free of mortal sin, with the Blessed Trinity dwelling in the soul), are thereby supernaturally meritorious because they share in the work and in the merits of Christ. Such supernatural good works will not only be rewarded by God, but are necessary for salvation.

St. Paul shows how the neglect of certain good works will send even a Christian believer to damnation: "But if any man have not care of his own, and especially of those of his house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (1 Tim. 5:8 ). Our Lord tells us that if the Master (God) returns and finds His servant sinning, rather than performing works of obedience, He "shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers."; (Luke 12:46).

Furthermore, Catholics know they will be rewarded in Heaven for their good works. Our Lord Himself said: "For the Son of man...will render to every man according to his works." (Matt. 16:27). "And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward." (Matt. 10:42). Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that "every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour." (1 Cor. 3:8 ). "For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints." (Heb. 6:10). "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day; and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming." (2 Tim. 4:7-8 ).

Still, Catholics know that, strictly speaking, God never owes us anything. Even after obeying all God's commandments, we must still say: "We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do." (Luke 17:10). As St. Augustine (5th century) stated: All our good merits are wrought through grace, so that God, in crowning our merits, is crowning nothing but His gifts."

Had St. Paul meant that faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, he would not have written: "...and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." (1 Cor. 13:2). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle James would not have written: "Do you see by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?...For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:24-26). Or: "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" (James 2:14). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle Peter would not have written: "Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure you calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:10-11). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the primitive Christian Fathers would not have advocated good works in such powerful words. Wrote St. Irenaeus, one of the most illustrious of the primitive Christian Fathers: "For what is the use of knowing the truth in word, while defiling the body and accomplishing the works of evil? Or what real good at all can bodily holiness do, if truth be not in the soul? For these two, faith and good works, rejoice in each other's company, and agree together and fight side by side to sen man in the Presence of God." (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching). Justification by faith alone is a new doctrine; it was unheard of in the Christian community before the sixteenth century.

[/quote]

harryryan SG

i dun think it ever will..... Laughing

plo30360 SG

moses was punished, that was right, that doesn't mean pugatory exists. The bible definitely never suggested there was such a place. we all commit sins, and our we are still punished even though we are saved. so what if you're a christian, u go rob someone, and you still pay for it by doing time in jail. in this world when u're alive. nowhere in the bible suggest that you pay for it after u die.

How about a person who gets away with his crime and never does any jail time?

Regarding the existence of purgatory:

True, the word "purgatory" does not appear in the Bible, but a place where lesser sins are purged away and the soul is saved "yet so as by fire, "is mentioned. (1 Cor. 3:15).

Also, the Bible distinguishes between those who enter Heaven straightaway, calling them "the church of the firstborn"(Heb. 12:23), and those who enter after having undergone a purgation, calling them "the spirits of the just made perfect." (Heb. 12:23). Christ Himself stated: "Amen I say to thee, thou shall not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." (Matt. 5:26). And: "Every idle word that men shall speak, thou shall not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." (Matt 5:26). And: "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment." (Matt. 12:36). These are obviously references to Purgatory. Further, the Second Book of Maccabees (which was dropped from the Scriptures by the Protestant reformers) says: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (2 Mach. 12:46). Ancient Christian tomb inscriptions from the second and third centuries frequently contain and appeal for prayers for the dead. In fact, the custom of praying for the dead, which is meaningless if there is no Purgatory, was universal among Christians for the fifteen centuries preceding the Protestant Reformation

Nelstar SG

This is like a family feud, brothers are fighting amongst themselves and outsiders are laughing at them.

plo30360 SG

http://www.endtimeinfo.net/Religion/falseprophet.php

In response to this article please read JWorld's article:
http://catholic.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=92087

plo30360 SG

If, we do not discuss our theological differences in here, where should we discuss them? In chit chat..

Nelstar SG

But it's so funny, for so many years, one book but different explanations and focus.

Laughing

plo30360 SG

some of your culture don't come from apostle peter, you noticed that? luthur was the one who dared to speak up. btw i don't come from the line of the luthurans, i'm from the brethern, came from good ol paul. Very Happy

sure, you believe in jesus, the baby jesus? your people saw the image of mother mary and an infant jesus telling u stuff right? i don't have time to quote everything, if you're a catholic you probably know. i'll type in the details later.

but i'd like to point out smth to you, did u ever thought that when your people saw the infant jesus giving u guys instruction, it may not be jesus at all? since jesus is already a grown man in his 30s when he died?

Please elborate and fill in details for I've no idea what you are talking about.

plo30360 SG

The more belief you have in something the more you want to know more about it and the things that both support and contradict your belief.

SIS is very fond of telling christians to question thier belief for betterment, that's what we are doing right now. Very Happy

[email protected] SG

christians kill christians. so farnie. helps eradicate this world of one big threat. Twisted Evil

Nelstar SG

Originally posted by plo30360:

The more belief you have in something the more you want to know more about it and [b]the things that both support and contradict your belief.

SIS is very fond of telling christians to question thier belief for betterment, that's what we are doing right now. Very Happy [/b]

Imagine the number of people who will try to murder those people who passed the book down if they found it was a hoax?

Laughing

Pope : I spent 70 years on this thing and there is no god?

Look at the time spent on this madness!

Okay, now the more serious reply. Understanding is one thing, appreciating is another. Squabbling like rats over a piece of cheese is a joke.

plo30360 SG

Just because we have heated discussions doen't mean we are going to kill each other.

Regarding the case of Ireland, its a matter of people twisting religion to suit thier political needs.

Besides, I'm harmless, no threat to anyone Very Happy

plo30360 SG

And how do you suggest we should discuss such topics?

[email protected] SG

the best is both sides shut up n stay away from one another. in a 100 years both sides still won't get your answer. i can only say, when u die, u'll find out if your religion was right or wrong. if it was wrong, too bad loh, go to hell. Laughing