NS Default: Never Step into SG/Extradition Treaty Countries?

last SG · 2012-07-11T18:30:09+00:00

Its not as easy as you think ...that you can simply relocate elsewhere and forget about Singapore...Most countries will require you to furnish proof that you...

Cavemanzipper SG

Hi, i'm 16 this year and will be going into ITE next year, then Polytechnic.
By the time I complete my diploma in Poly, I will be 22, and I intend to find some work with that diploma, probably in Australia.

My parents (Msia-born, then grew up in Australia), had me n my bro in Msia [some relatives there], then migrated both of us here (I was about 4 years old).
Didn't know we were going to be liable for NS etc. so just let it pass and my parents have already made plans with my relatives in Australia to migrate there in the middle of my studies.
My bro was not schooling when he turned 18 so he had to enlist for NS, and he's now serving.

When he's done in about a year more, they've decided to all migrate to Australia as planned, so i'll be the last person of my family line staying here in Singapore for those few years then doing NS on my own.

I've spoken to them about my concerns about my liabilities and also having to stay at the army camp as my home during my service since I won't be able to afford basic accomodation with their salary, and they told me to think about it carefully for myself which is why i'm here.
I need some second opinions...i'm a very Westernized guy because my family/household is just like that, don't forgot my parents grew up, studied and worked in Australia before giving birth to me in Malaysia, so i've got the accent and the culture in Australia is fantastic for me (been there on some family vacations).

I don't see any reason i'd need to return to Singapore, and if i'm flying from Australia up to say, Europe, there's bound to be airlines that have stopovers in Hong Kong, Dubai or Thailand instead of Singapore, so I wouldn't ever need to be in transit here.

I also don't buy into the "what if the plane needs to make an emergency landing?" myth, simply because I just won't take an airline that will be flying near/over Singapore.

Anyway, many apologies for the long post, i'm just in a real bind.
To the many Singaporean males who have served NS, I know you've been in a similiar seat to mine before and I applaud you for your strength to see the decision through in that direction, but I hope you'll understand my situation and advise me accordingly.
I'm not saying i'm any different or should be treated any different from the other NS defaulters, I just want to know if I should or shouldn't, considering that if I DO do my NS, it would take away these 2 years (then reservists) which I could better spend elsewhere.

And If I DO default, what sort of consequences am I looking at?
Not returning to Singapore/ stopping over in transit flight?
A criminal as far as Singapore is concerned?

(P.S- i've spoken to MINDEF about my issue, and they basically told me I either do it when the time comes or i'm a wanted man in Singapore's eyes.)

the Bear SG

Those who are liable to serve national service but refuse are charged under the Enlistment Act. If convicted, they face three years' imprisonment and a fine of S$10,000.

Controversy arose when the penalties were increased in January 2006 after Melvyn Tan, who was born in Singapore, received a fine for defaulting on his National Service obligations. Tan left for London to study music during his enlistment age and later acquired British nationality. In parliament, Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean provided some illustration of the punishments defaulters would face:

Each year, a small number of people are convicted for their failure to enlist or refusal to be conscripted. Most of them were Jehovah's Witnesses, who are usually court-martialled and sentenced to three years' imprisonment, but they are usually held in a low-security detention facility and separated from other conscription offenders. The government does not consider conscientious objection to be a legal reason for refusal to serve NS.

Cavemanzipper SG

Currently, to the best of my knowledge, I think just Singapore (I'm not sure if I still have the Malaysian one since people say Singapore doesn't recognize duals, Malaysia might have renounced me automatically).

Hitman Chief (Barium) SG

did they forgot to tell you you are a wanted man even after you have completed national service for certain reasons?its a crime too under their directive if you were to go out without their approval when you stop donning the army uniform once you are a reservist.

currently those reservists are only allowed to leave singapore if they have work overseas or studies overseas or perhaps they might grant an exit permit for you joining your folks in oz or you tell them you are immigrating.its upto them.but if you were to serve ns the accomodation would be the issue in hand.

defaulting would be years in a military prison.heard rumours they are usually naked inside.even reservists get it when they return to spore after working overseas without valid documents.first on landing ,they get arrested at aiurport and get housed at airport lockup.then they get transported to kranji or some far out jungle prison.dont know if transit would be affected as you have not went thru customs with the computer and people looking at the photo documents of wanted people.you arent the only person who is wanted really.once many deacades ago,there were documents and pictures of wanted people in spore and the customs had them at airport customs counter physically.

and no,im not a defaulter.i didnt run away or anything.i did my ns and found out later on i had been sold out by spore and its counterproductive labour policies.and once above 40 yrs old,it would be hard to get any work if you are retrenched even if you are a degree holder as its the culture there mostly.only job would be a low paying job probably commandeered by people that have not done any ns in any country.its alright if they are polite and professional but they are mostly nasty , power hungry and rude.not much different than a fish monger. thanks to the many sporeans and people who see nothing,know nothing and hear nothing.

Hitman Chief (Barium) SG

not sure what kind of immigration they intend to go for in oz unless they are doctors.

Lokey SG

Then you should just do NS here as a Singaporean. It will give you options in the future.Unlike others, who have never stayed in Singapore or never knew that he has a pink ic, your case is different.

tarutaru SG

you should serve because you don't know what may happened in the future let's said maybe not transit but maybe a job that required you to travel to these regions. Don't tell me you are going to turn in down or resigned if you job scope change?

eac SG

Source: www.mindef.gov.sg

Written Reply by Minister for Defence Dr Ng Eng Hen to Parliamentary Question on National Service (NS) Defaulters
Posted: 10 Jan 2012, 1100 hours (Time is GMT +8 hours)

Mr Lim Biow Chuan: To ask the Minister for Defence how many National Service (NS) defaulters have been sentenced to imprisonment for defaulting NS over the past three years and whether all NS defaulters will be sentenced to imprisonment.

Minister: Over the past three years, five National Service (NS) defaulters have been sentenced to imprisonment by the Court.

To maintain equity of treatment and the commitment for all who are liable to serve their NS, it is necessary to take a tough stand against the few who default on their NS obligations. MINDEF will press for a custodial sentence on the NS defaulter based on the length of default and the following guidelines:

a. Short jail sentence. Where the default period exceeds two years but the defaulter is young enough to serve his full-time and operationally ready NS (ORNS) duties in full, MINDEF will press for a short jail sentence.

b. Longer jail sentence. Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot serve his full-time NS in a combat vocation or fulfil his ORNS obligations in full, MINDEF will press for a longer jail sentence to reflect the period of NS evaded.

c. Maximum jail sentence. Where the defaulter has passed the age of 40 and cannot be called up for NS at all, MINDEF will press for a jail sentence up to the maximum of three years.

The Court decides on the sentence received by NS defaulters taking into consideration the circumstances of the individual case and the sentence MINDEF has pressed for. After their punishments by the Court, NS defaulters who are still NS-liable will have to serve NS.

Mr Milo SG

if TS renounces his Sg Citizenship or PR status, then how?

eac SG

Source: http://www.agc.gov.sg/international/extradition.htm

The Attorney-General’s Chambers is Singapore’s Central Authority for Extradition Matters. The International Affairs Division of the Attorney-General’s Chambers handles and processes all requests for Extradition in accordance with the provisions of the Extradition Act (Cap 103) and any applicable Extradition Treaty.

Singapore can extradite fugitives to declared Commonwealth countries as well as countries with which Singapore has an Extradition Treaty in force, in accordance with the provisions of the Act and the applicable Extradition Treaty, as the case may be.

Hitman Chief (Barium) SG

Source: http://www.agc.gov.sg/international/extradition.htm

dont get con fused with interpol and ns liabilities.

alize SG

This is a quiet little secret I heard from overseas ex-Singaporeans. Go and renounce your citizenship overseas.

Singapore has an "age 11 rule" applies if you are in Singapore and are going to leave Singapore. Within the territory of Singapore, you may not renounce Singapore citizenship beyond the age of 11.

If you are overseas, how can you expect Singapore jurisdiction to apply? Simply go to the Singapore embassy nearest you, fill up a form and get rid of it once and for all. Many have done so and will continue to do so, it takes mere minutes. This applies at any age. No one can stop you from doing so, but they may give the impression you cannot.

Your main concern is not leaving Singapore, but having citizenship or right of residence in Australia or your chosen country of residence. Make sure you have it otherwise you will be stateless.

As for that emergency travel fairy tale, what are the chances, and don't you think Australia will tell Singapore to keep its hands off its citizens?

Read the above lengthy post and you will see it applies to defaulters, ie someone who is legally liable to serve but who evades service. Non citizens are not legally liable.

A deserter is a soldier who is already enlisted and then goes missing from the armed forces.

alize SG

I think TS is well prepared to face the consequences and not worried about "in case" scenarios.

Eg Singapore wants us to learn Chinese up to A Levels "in case we must go to China". A lot of us take physics in A Levels "in case we do engineering" but never use it in our lives. Result- years of wasted study.

mancha SG

The answer is right there in the last sentence in brackets.

Should have scoot to Oz before you became liable for NS.

Live here, study here, then pay back time, want to run.

TIB783G SG

I don't mind being honest with you, I'm a SG myself, I'm exempted and to be honest within this 2 years I bulid up my work life and it's been great so far.

If you want to default, go ahead, You can spend 2 years buliding up your work life in AU instead of wasting your time here. 2 years is enough for an individual to work his way up the industry to be honest. I don't encourage people to default but if your families are living in a foreign land it is a great chance, Why not?

And don't worry, I don't think AU flights to other countries will 'stopover' at SG, At most at HK then they will stop over. If you are scared why do you want to default?

Cavemanzipper SG

@Everybody,

Thanks for all your help and support, my decision seems much clearer now.
And to clear something up...I know it's not a very popular choice amongst males, but I want to become a nurse.
It's always been a dream of mine, and I was in the SJAB and Red Cross in Singapore and Malaysia, and I know that nurses are an extremely valuable and rare occupation in many countries because of the nature of their work.
ie. Unlike a doctor, a nurse will have to bathe some of their patients or deal with their excrement, which not many will want to do but it's a job I want to bring strength in for.

So I know that I won't be getting any compulsory job offers in Singapore for certain, because there are shortages of nurses worldwide, it's also listed highly in Australia's Skilled Worker Index which improves my migration chances and my ease of survival overseas.

@ TIB783G

Thank you for your honesty, it's very encouraging to know that. Might I ask, why were you exempted though? Medical reasons?

I thoroughly believe so as well. As an individual, that 2 years of climbing up the workforce can prove invaluable.
Althought military service looks great on a resume, it wouldn't make me feel any better to have trained myself to take lives or worse, to have just done nothing and been a storeman/clerk.

Cavemanzipper SG

Source: http://www.agc.gov.sg/international/extradition.htm

I understand that there are extradition laws in place but I also know that extradition doesn't just happen straightforwardly.
First the appeal has to be valid, and to make it valid, a common condition is that the crime committed has to be a crime in the country you're requesting from as well.
So things like murderers, rapists, robbers, etc. extradition would make a lot of sense, but Australia is a country that not only doesn't view avoiding compulsory military conscription as a crime, it also has humans rights groups actively fighting for the people who seek safety usually from countries of serious physical danger (ie. the Middle East).

Though my case is not as extreme, I have quite a handful of close, personal friends who have done what i'm contemplating and by "friends" I mean they're in their mid 30s to 40s already and nothing has happened to them.

On top of that, even after the extradition request is sent out, another country has the right to reject it outright if it doesn't seem valid. And as a PR, studying and living in Australia, and as a skilled worker no less, it's not in their best interest to hand me over for something that is not a crime in their own country.

And let's say, after this extradition request is approved for review, I will be fighting my case in the foreign court FIRST, which would be Australian court.
So what alize has said previously seems very accurate.

It was something to the effect of: "Australia is allowing Singapore to operate its embassy within Australia, not the other way around, so Singapore laws don't apply in a Singapore embassy overseas."
Which makes alot of sense because i'm sure no one has been arrested for chewing gum in a Singapore embassy overseas.

And while I realize that it is still a grey, untouched and secretive area, I DO believe many, especially in recent years, have migrated overseas wholesale.

Cavemanzipper SG

dont get con fused with interpol and ns liabilities.

Also, in response to both of you,

Courtesy of > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition

By enacting laws or concluding treaties or agreements, countries determine the conditions under which they may entertain or deny extradition requests. Common bars to extradition include:

Rednano SG

some references:

1. http://sgforums.com/topics/search?q=Skip+NS&commit=Go&type=topics

2. http://sgforums.com/topics/search?q=Siam+NS&commit=Go&type=topics

dangerboi SG

What is your nationality?

What's your status in Singapore?

Singapore and Hong Kong are prime transit destinations for the major airlines.

I know what you're thinking.

Better contemplate wisely...