NS Defaulter: Come Back to SG OR Don't Ever Return ?

NeutralDensity0.6 SG

Is it worth it though?

Left when I was a kid (needed exit permit, had NIRC already). Recent circumstances (mostly family) made me realize that I'll still like the freedom to be able to travel to Singapore if necessary

For the record I'm 27 and have spent half my life abroad. I'm fairly Westernized but am still able to converse in my mother tongue (Mandarin). I have a University education and while I don't exactly run marathons for breakfast, I'm not entirely unfit either. I have citizenship status with the country I'm currently living in.

That said, what do you guys think? Too old? I've read about that Melvyn Tan business and am somewhat discouraged by it. In all honesty, I'm perfectly willing to set aside 2 years of my life in good faith so as to be able to travel freely. To add to that I'm also keen to get rid of that lingering thought on the back of my head that I'm a criminal in the country of my birth.

I know I'm not the first and I doubt I'll be the last. Plenty of folks like me out there who just want to sort out this messy business once and for all.

baikachuchu SG

First up,it would be best for you to liase with Mindef or the SG embassy in your country of residence on this matter.Only they can give you a clear stand on the options left open to you regarding this.

From a personal point of view,if you are asking whether it is worth it in the first place then there is no point in even considering it.If the reasons you gave do not provide you with a strong enough motivation to surrender yourself without thinking twice,then nothing else will.

Why would you be discouraged by Melvyn Tan's case?He defaulted his NS so he had to face the consequences.Do you expect a much more lenient sentence for NS defaulters or even to the extent for them to be entirely pardoned?Since you read up on his case,you should be aware that there was an outrage from Singaporeans over his seemingly lenient punishment.A $3K fine is a paltry sum for the opportunities he had by not serving.

If you really want a so called "secure" way to enter back Singapore without facing too heavy a penalty,then wait till you are 40 then return back.I doubt they will do anything much when you are that age.

You are not the first and won't be the last but this begs the question,why do it in the first place then show remorse thereafter?I'm not trying to flame you but I'm irritated time and again by such defaulters whose parents knew very well what the consequences would be for their son should they choose this path but yet continously seek out a loophole in which they won't have to face any penalties when they decide to return.

"If you choose to do the crime,then do the time"

I applaud you for giving this matter some thought though but I suggest you discuss this matter in depth with your own family first.As a warning though,even if you should choose to return to face trial,they might hand out the jail term as the penalty and you still have the serve the 2 years thereafter.There might be other charges that Mindef can bring such as failing to apply for exit permit or defering for further studies too.

MaNyZeR SG

Those who are liable to serve national service but refuse are charged under the Enlistment Act. If convicted, they face three years' imprisonment and a fine of S$10,000.

Controversy arose when the penalties were increased in January 2006 after Melvyn Tan, who was born in Singapore, received a fine for defaulting on his National Service obligations. Tan left for London to study music during his enlistment age and later acquired British nationality. In parliament, Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean provided some illustration of the punishments defaulters would face:

Each year, a small number of people are convicted for their failure to enlist or refusal to be conscripted. Most of them were Jehovah's Witnesses, who are usually court-martialled and sentenced to three years' imprisonment, but they are usually held in a low-security detention facility and separated from other conscription offenders. The government does not consider conscientious objection to be a legal reason for refusal to serve NS.

hisoka SG

if you're considering, go talk to mindef. cut out a deal, then consider. But only do this if you're seriously considering.

Junyang700 SG

Its best not to come back since you have your citizenship overseas already.

If you come back, most likely prosecuted. Jailed for a few years then 2 years of National Service (as you are younger than 40). And it was your parents fault anyway that you left Singapore without knowing the consequences.

NeutralDensity0.6 SG

Interesting comments. Thanks to all who responded.

About the Melvyn Tan case. I raised that issue because I'm not exactly keen on the 'mandatory' jail term clamored by most Singaporeans after his case was made public. I think a hefty fine at that age should suffice. I do concur that $3000 is a bit too low.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not looking to find a loophole to get out of it. I just want to serve for 2 years, no questions asked.

As for why I did it? It wasn't a case of me, it was a case of us. My family left the country, I had no choice. That said, I refuse to blame my parents for my current predicament. I've blamed them in the past regarding this issue, but I've since realized that it's counterproductive. If anything I should be blamed for going along with it so easily. In the end, it's still up to me to sort it out.

I've discussed this with my parents and they're taking a hands off approach this time around. They've conceded that I'm old enough to gauge the pros and cons of the situation and eventually make an informed decision.

I might contact Mindef in a couple of days and see what good will come of it. I'm obviously not in the position to dicate terms but I still need a compromise of some sort that won't entirely ruin my life. A fine and 2 years of service is reasonable. A jail term (a few years? seriously?) followed by the service is ludicrous.

Now I've read about the recent controversy regarding Singaporeans emigrating and foreign permanent residents 'taking over'. Can anyone say brain drain? Drastic demographic change? Obviously I'm in no position to criticize but I personally believe making it high nigh impossible for Singaporean born defaulters (we number in the tens of thousands, perhaps more) to return serves nobody any good. Some of us just might be of some use to the country if we can return. Like I said, I'm willing to return to serve out the full term in good faith as long as the additional penalties aren't excessively harsh.

wisefool83 SG

Is it worth it though?

Left when I was a kid (needed exit permit, had NIRC already). Recent circumstances (mostly family) made me realize that I'll still like the freedom to be able to travel to Singapore if necessary

For the record I'm 27 and have spent half my life abroad. I'm fairly Westernized but am still able to converse in my mother tongue (Mandarin). I have a University education and while I don't exactly run marathons for breakfast, I'm not entirely unfit either. I have citizenship status with the country I'm currently living in.

I know I'm not the first and I doubt I'll be the last. Plenty of folks like me out there who just want to sort out this messy business once and for all.

I have citizenship status with the country I'm currently living in.

Since Singapore does not allow duo-citizenship, I can only infer that you have given up your Singapore citizenship quite some time ago. If you are no longer a Singapore citizen, you will not be required to serve NS. And assuming you don't have PR status, you can't even volunteer to serve NS.

If you are the citizen of another country, you should be able to travel to Singapore fairly easy with a social visit visa as a tourist. Hey, if you come often enough, you can even become a PR.

baikachuchu SG

IIRC,the penalty is jail term of up to 3 years,a fine up to 5k or both.From what I heard over the years,it seems that most cases usually end up in a fine.You might actually stand a good chance of avoiding a jail term but I cannot personally guarantee anything.

I would have to politely disagree about the part regarding making it high nigh impossible for defaulters to return.The law was enacted to deter people from defaulting in the first place not as a "carrot" to entice them to come back and serve.

If the penalty was reduced to only a fine,I think alot of people will abuse the system then.Many will end up skipping their enlistment to further their own studies or goals first since the only thing they need to fear should they choose to return is merely a fine.Jacking up the fine to a sum of let's say,a $1 million,would be ridiculous too and might actually promote the idea of "money can buy you a way out".

I agree that some of the defaulters can be of use to the country when they return but many including myself will question as to just HOW useful they are to justify them returning with only a "slap to wrist".In the past,some of the other defaulters flaunted their prestigious degrees as proof of how they can contribute to the country but it only served to fuel anger from the local males who are usually older than these defaulters but have yet to complete their degrees.I came across a defaulter who was let off with a fine but during his NS,he constantly complained as to why they had not sent him to OCS since he had a degree as compared to the majority of the other conscripts.That irritated me and my buddies to no end.

To say they are green with envy is not wrong.After all,they abided by the law and sacrificed much in the process.Many including myself didn't particularly enjoy our NS stint but that is not a good reason to not impose stiff penalties on those who choose to flaunt the law.In your case,it was not your choice but that of your parents'.I agree that it is pointless to blame them but the consequences of their actions cannot be avoided.

Defaulting NS is just like AWOling,both carry the possibility of a jail term because it is a serious offence to your own country.If the penalties cannot reflect the seriousness of such a duty,many will argue that NS should not be made compulsory and I doubt the politicians would want such a situation anytime soon.

I hope you will get a favourable reply from Mindef.

baikachuchu SG

I have citizenship status with the country I'm currently living in.

If you are the citizen of another country, you should be able to travel to Singapore fairly easy with a social visit visa as a tourist. Hey, if you come often enough, you can even become a PR.

Maybe he hasn't officially renounced it yet?I doubt that the local authorities are even aware of his new citizenship.

NeutralDensity0.6 SG

Nah I don't think it works that way (regarding citizenship). If I could give up my Singaporean citizenship and still be able to return without any problems (NS included), I would. The key is that all male Singaporeans are required to finish their NS term before they can relinquish their Singaporean citizenship. Of course the dual nationality business makes it a bit complicated. As far as the authorities care, I'm still Singaporean and Singaporean only in their eyes. As for the authorities of my adopted country, they couldn't care less that I serve in a foreign military and hold another nationality as long as I'm not forced to give up theirs'.

Thanks for the heads up baikachuku. You've given me a slight understanding as to what local Singaporean males think of us hehe. I understand the whole 'green with envy' bit. In all honesty I personally want to finish my term as quietly as I can, with minimal fuss, and move on with my life. I couldn't care less about OCS, flaunting what little education I have (basic BA) and what not. I'll be perfectly content with whatever rank/status the powers at be slap me with no matter how lowly. After all the reason why I'm going through all this trouble to head back is to fix a personal mistake and to fulfill a personal promise to a now deceased grandparent who I dearly loved.

I too hope for a favorable reply from Mindef.

SBS2601D SG

Green with envy? no la

not when the curry kantang here is still so nice

HITMAN11111111111 SG

to density,

when you get back to spore u will probably be clobbered by all those national servicemen who were too poor to immigrate or even find decent food to eat.you will get clobbered left and right.even the army doctors would more or less be less willing to listen to you especially if you are a recruit.for a few years of torture...for what??their nasi lemak??u can goto malaysia...they have better nasi lemak n other food.

if u need to enter spore,,just change your name on your passport legally on any passsport.its perfectly legal.

if that were to be the case,you might as well be doing your national service in japan where everyone looks at you as if u were some sort of gaijin!the choice to jail n fine you or even to have your head completely shaven and humiliaTED AND BEING HANDCUFFED AT CHANGI AIRPORT THE INSTANT YOU LAND IS VERY REAL.

SO WHEN A LITTLE KID LOOKS AT YOU BEING HANDCUFFED AND PULLED TO SOME BASEMENT DETENTION TRANSFER CELL .....N WHEN KID ASKS HIS MOM WHY THE MAN GOT HANDCUFFED...THE MOM WOULD SAY ...OOOOHE MUST HAVE KILLED SOMEONE....LETS GO AWAY FROM THAT BAD MAN!

OF COURSE LITTLE KIDS PARENTS THINK U WERE EITHER A RAPIST OR SOME DRUG DEALER.

Psychojet SG

Same situation here except I'm 29 with a bachelor's degree and a Ph.D. degree in the biological sciences from top tiered universities in the U.S. Have years of work experiences within US government that I think Singapore government would consider important (i.e. defense-related). Left with parents at the age of 9, but has a NRIC (got it at age 12). Am a US citizen with US passport (in completely new name, i.e. new American name and surname, but kept old Singapore name as middle name). Can't renounce Singapore citizenship without fulfilling NS either. Just want to return for a vacation to visit family, no intentions of staying any longer. Silly NS rule for someone who has no intentions of staying in Singapore for beyond 2 weeks. Just want to come back and spend my money as a foreign vacationer.

insidestory SG

I too hope for a favorable reply from Mindef.

SG does not permit dual citizenship. But whether you have NS liability or not, depends on when you relinquish the SG citizenship. if its a few years before 18, you're definitely liable for NS. But if you are very westernised and have not been in SG for over 10 years it will be very hard for you to adapt to NS life, especially since you don't intend to go to OCS. If you think by not going to OCS, you will have a nicer life, I think not. You may be beaten the crap by the men. At least in OCS there're higher odds that you may find some like-minded people. Its really up to you. Your parents are also overseas right?

If i were you, i'd rather not come back. I only came back because my family, including my extended family is based here, including our business and moreover I only left 18, so I was not as foreign to Singapore as you are. I intend to live here and make money until my early to mid 50s and take up US citizenship and retire there. Which country did your parents and you take up roots in? I was in the states for four years after A levels and had a hard time dragging myself back.

US is truly the most beautiful country in the world, with the world's smartest men and most beautiful girls, the most dynamic cities, universities, and companies, the best tech gadgets, the smartest, nicest, warmest people and the most gorgeous sceneries.

Psychojet SG

Yeah, I understand Singapore does not permit dual citizenship and I am more than willing to give up my SG citizenship, but they will not let me do so without fulfilling NS. In any case, I have been a US citizen for 11 years now and have not returned to Singapore since I was 12 years old (which is 17 years ago!). In fact, I even married an American earlier this year. And yet, I'm stuck in the dumb Singapore Catch-22 law of not allowing me to renounce my citizenship.

As for assimilation back into Singapore society and culture, there would be ABSOLUTELY no chance of that because not only have I been completely westernized after living in the USA for 20 years of life, I have completely lost any and all ability to speak Chinese. I even have a difficult time understanding English spoken by Singaporeans.

The only reason I want to return is that my mom's side of the family are all in Singapore and I would like to visit them after not seeing them for over 17 years. That's all. Absolutely no intentions of living nor working in Singapore at all. Just vacationing and spending money in Singapore.

NeutralDensity0.6 SG

Well bit of an update to whoever's interested.

I conversed with Mindef. They basically discouraged me from coming back citing the increase of penalties for defaulters post-Melvyn Tan. Surprisingly they were actually sympathetic to my case. They don't mind taking me back to serve the 2 years but apparently the civilian politicians above them would rather see me rot in jail instead. Rather myopic as I believe there are plenty of people like myself who are willing to serve as long as no additional jail terms are tossed on top of it.

to insidestory:

NS defaulters do not go to OCS. I confirmed it with a friend of mind and I think it's fair. I wouldn't want to anyway. Would rather go through regular NS service quietly and get out after. If that's not possible, c'est la vie. It's not really up to me anyway. It's up to the system and the government. As it is, I doubt I will be heading back due to the prospects of a hefty jail term. The NS I don't mind, I'm even willing to put up with the possibility of 'special treatment'. It's the jail time that I find excessive and unjust. What other country besides Singapore (and possibly North Korea) would impose such harsh penalties on its own people with regards to forced conscription? At the end of the day, many of us (defaulters) left young due to our families leaving. Many of us had no choice.

to psychojet:

I'm pretty much in the same situation as you with regards to citizenship status. I've been a citizen of my country of residence ever since I was 13. Unfortunately my parents were short sighted enough to get me an NIRC thus locking me into Singapore's NS system. As for returning to Singapore. I wouldn't head there for anything more than a short stay either. Like you I can't renounce due to the NS catch 22. Like you there's nothing for me there besides family, vacationing and a strong desire to visit the country of my birth.

I think the whole situation is unfortunate. I sincerely hope that Singapore's laws will change in the future, although I can't say I'm confident they will.

insidestory SG

Actually, no the law isn't dumb. In fact it's smart, because it was deliberately meant to punish defaulters in an almost sadistic manner from the way I see it, (make it hard for you to even step foot here, tear you away from possible relatives), so as to discourage defaulting in general to the whole population. If they allowed any male SG citizen who is able to get citizenship in other countries to simply give up the SG citizenship as the only condition to skip NS, it would be way too easy.

It is not difficult to get citizenship. I know quite a lot of foreigners who after 4 years there studying and landing a job right after, became naturalized Americans eventually plus the US is extremely immigrant-friendly.

There are over 200 countries in the world. Can't get citizenship from one country, try the next. At this rate, more than half of the sg male population due to serve NS will take this way out and half the country's population will be emptied out. Well, at least those with the means.

I know what you mean by difficulty in understand the spoken English of some Singaporeans. I didn't come across so many people who spoke distorted and mangled English with terrible dictions until I did NS. The most horrifying thing is, most of those with the horrendous dictions are actually graduates or would-be graduates, going to one of the three unfortunate universities here. In my experience, the graduates or would be graduates from Australia speak better.

weymas SG

well, if you can stay away from ns liabilities, why not? you're already 27, and have already adapted to the life of the country you're residing in right now, so why come back?

i know you'd like to travel to singapore without having to be jailed for defaulting.. but well, since the law in singapore is so inflexible, there's nothing u can do about it.

baikachuchu SG

Well bit of an update to whoever's interested.

to insidestory:

to psychojet:

I think the whole situation is unfortunate. I sincerely hope that Singapore's laws will change in the future, although I can't say I'm confident they will.

I doubt the laws will change any time either with respect to this issue.....unless someone can come up with an alternative punishment that is on par with a jail term?

Like I said earlier,if there was no possibility of a jail term for defaulting,there will be a high chance that others will take advantage of the system and skip NS when its their time,go overseas to study,and come back under the pretext that they have a change of heart and want to serve to clear their debt.I believe that you are sincere to clear the taint on your record but can the same be said for others who have followed in your footsteps?

I don't think the govt want to open a floodgate which they cannot close.If they really just limit it to a fine,I will definitely encourage my future son to skip his enlistment first.A 3k-6k fine is nothing in exchange for the opportunities he can gain by doing so.

Peter:"Hey Joe,I'm troubled by my upcoming enlistment....I want to complete my uni studies first and not wait 2 years later when my brain's all too rusted to do it...."

Joe:"No worries bro!Just skip your enlistment and go overseas for your uni studies first.After all,it's only a fine mah!When you come back,just say that you are sorry and tell them that you are ready to serve.Then pay fine and case closed!"

Psychojet SG

Yeah, I agree that the law isn't going to change any time soon (if ever). I guess the closest I will come to Singapore is to travel to southern Malaysia and meet my family there (which really isn't too bad). I distinctly remember there were lots of really great seafood restaurants (chilli crabs, anyone?) right along the border there, wonder if they're still there? Weird memories as I was last there when I was 9 (20 years ago!). Unfortunately, the Hainanese Chicken rice dishes here in the U.S. just do not compare nor the otak-otak or nasi lemak, shame. In any case, from what I have seen and read of Singapore, so much has changed as it has become more and more of a mass metropolis nowadays, almost too commercial. Oh well, though I would have liked to see how my old childhood neighborhood has changed (Bukit Purmei, located within walking distance to Sentosa).

Insidestory, I'm so glad I found someone in agreement with the English spoken/written by Singaporeans. I seriously thought it was just me. It truly boogles my mind. Just going over to the other forums/topics here on this sgforums site actually made me self-awared of my presumed inadequency (now I know it's not me). I can't even understand the random facebook postings of my nephew and his friends and they're currently university students in Singapore.

C'est la vie!