Officers: Scholar vs Farmer

last SG · 2008-10-22T23:59:57+00:00

It's always amusing to see such issues coming out to the fore. What's more amusing is that there are people who actually buy into the argument that being a s...

Rednano SG

we are farmers :((

not only saf... the whole govt civil service... all the ministries as well...

Gloater SG

ya this one i realise.

all SAFO is from JC. govt. hav the mindset that poly student are not that smart.

but i know SMS & LSA gt afew from poly ones. but also have from top JC.

hahahahah.

You find lots of LSA, SMS and ATA from top JC because even in top JC, 80% of top JC students become mediocre after A levels. Most also end up like the same farmers as those who don't go to top JC or elite sec school.

If you think about it, majority of elite sec school students and top JC students also end up in the same universities (normally local) and same places in life as those who chose to go to neighbourhood schools or poly. in a top JC, only a very tiny percentage of less than 1% are the creme de la creme.

This means going to poly doesn't mean that you are any less than someoen who goes to JC. Dun need to say normal JC. Even in top JC, a sizeable number end up doing courses like unpopular so-called dumping grounds like science, arts and social science, end up in local unniversity, and they also end up the same place in life as those who went to poly. In the workforce, they all also work side and side and in same place in life.

Nokia-lover SG

okay, but is the diff between SAFO & SMS really big, or jus quite small?

Gloater SG

okay, but is the diff between SAFO & SMS really big, or jus quite small?

From what I know in the SAF, only OS is considered scholar.

gahmen itself says that its the most prestigious after PS. http://www.mindef.gov.sg/scholarship/safos_intro.asp. SAFOS is PSC. SMS is not. And service chiefs blah blah all SAFOS, and of cos the SAFOS perm secs, deputy secs in ministries, they are CEOs of stat boards and GLCs,.and another thing if you r older and know abt its past recipients, where they go after SAF and many times, even before they hit 45, and also the publicity of people like He Ruimin, well yah. Our own PM is a SAFOS. so there.

I also notice SAFOS given out very few, and a lot of SMS are given out and is even subdivided into dunno what psychology, engineering and SMS (girls) what not categories.

teraexa SG

okay, but is the diff between SAFO & SMS really big, or jus quite small?

To put it into context, SAFOS is the military equivalent of the OMS (Overseas Merit Scholarship) and together with SPFOS (Singapore Police Force Overseas Scholarship), they form the 3 highest tier of scholarships in Singapore. You can't be a President's Scholar without being either.

In the military context, SAFOS' CEP(Current Estimated Potential) is all the way to service chief and defence chief level. SMS and MTA (Military Training Award or now known as SAS(Military)) are all the way up to BG (except for SMS(Women) that is) even though most of the generals are SAFOS because there are simply not enough general ranks to go around. A realistic CEP for SMS will be COL, around brigade or formation commader at most.

Now you might think that SMS is pretty big in SAF judging by its CEP. It must be balanced with the police and civilian equivalents. They are SGS(Singapore Government Scholarship)-Open and SGS-SPF.

There are fundamentally 2 differences between these 3:

1) SMS is the only scholarship other than SAFOS, OMS and SPFOS that offers you full salary during your course of study although your allowance is lower than SAFOS

2) SMS is not administered jointly with PSC, unlike SGS-SPF. SMS is wholly administered by SAF with no dual track in the civil service. However, it is common to find former SMS scholars being seconded to Government-Linked Companies (GLCs) upon exit of service.

Well that's fundamentally the facts about SMS. I can confidently tell you that these information are the most current as of this year because I have been offered SMS (rejected it due personal reasons) and I have friends who are holders of the above-mentioned scholars.

As for scholarship in the SAF, when it comes down to the choice of accepting it or not, it really depends on your passion for the organisation. There's no hard and fast rule for everyone. Touch your heart and read your mind. The answer is likely to be in either.

teraexa SG

From what I know in the SAF, only OS is considered scholar.

I also notice SAFOS given out very few, and a lot of SMS are given out and is even subdivided into dunno what psychology, engineering and SMS (girls) what not categories.

Actually, for SMS, there are only 3 fundamental categories, combat, women and others (incl. engineering and psychology). Combat will allow you to enrol in prestigious military academies in other countries (eg West Point). Women is for, well, females. Others (ie engineering and psychology) are only labels to indicate your course of study and they are pretty irrelevant nowadays.

Gloater SG

Now you might think that SMS is pretty big in SAF judging by its CEP. It must be balanced with the police and civilian equivalents. They are SGS(Singapore Government Scholarship)-Open and SGS-SPF.

There are fundamentally 2 differences between these 3:

1) SMS is the only scholarship other than SAFOS, OMS and SPFOS that offers you full salary during your course of study although your allowance is lower than SAFOS

You're spot on that SMS is the equivalent of SGS in the ministries in rank. And ATA(military) where you can only enrol in military schools like Westpoint or US Naval Academy is the same league as SMS. ATA is like SMS, subdivided into three different types from what I rem. The others are combat and engineering.

ATA combat and engineering is one rank below SMS, they are no different from LSA people.

The CEP of SMS does not mean that all or even most of the SMS will make General. Simply because CEP of SAFOS is often perm sec (which is higher than CDF), CDF or COA. Being that the COA/CDF position changes hands only every 3 years or so, many of the SAFOS hit BG and then go to the ministries as perm sec (PS), deputy sec (DS) or to stat boards/GLCs as CEO and directors. Basically, SAFOS crowd out the BG rank.

teraexa: you made an error in no.1. Only SAFOS and SPFOS get full salary during studies. OMS does not- they only get the allowance that all overseas scholars including SAFOS and SPFOS, stat board, GLC scholars get. The full salary component come from SAFOS/SPFOS being uniformed and the cream of PSC (monetary uniformed bait). OMS is not uniformed. SMS gets salary but I rem the salary given is lower than SAFOS even though both may be the same age and thus same rank.

For one, it's the most prestigious the govt has declared after President's Scholarship (overall and not just in SAF).

Second, it's the only scholarship awarded by PSC. SMS is just like the rest, awarded in SAF only. I did not know about SMS until I enlisted. All JC students who attended scholarship talks and who researched for scholarships in J2 would have known about SAFOS and the other PSC top scholarships.

Third, SAFOS is a top PSC scholarship, alongside SPFOS and OMS.

Fourth, SAFOS is the only one that allows disruption immediately upon receiving the scholarship.

Lastly and this is the most important one because what matters in one's careers is what YOUR BOSS thinks. Only SAFOS scholars are regarded as scholars in the SAF by the government/SAF.

teraexa, I'm curious..can you name me some examples of SMS who has done well in a non-uniformed capacity in ministry or stat board or GLC? You said there are but I don't know of any, whereas for SAFOS they are everywhere and all holding extremely high profile and top posts, and the govt makes no bones to publicise them and their positions too.

For eg our PM and 1/4 of the ministerial cabinet are SAFOS scholars. The PS/DS of Mindef are SAFOS scholars, not SMS. And SAFOS are all over stat boards and GLCs like CEO of STB, SLA, MAS, LTA, DSTA, MD of Temasek, DBS, chairman of Astar, etc. SAFOS's achievements in non uniformed capacity seem endorsed and supported by the govt but i've not heard a thing about SMS.

This is because SAFOS is essentially a PSC sacred cow. It's a PSC entity. SMS, ATA and LSA are SAF entities. This is also what I meant when I said SAFOS are equal part employees of SAF, equal part of PSC. The exposure they get to Admin Service and ministries is unparalleled.

I also remember that SMS is given out in very big numbers. In my year, close to 30 were given out and they are given out very easily too. 4As would get you an SMS because I know many with only 4As. Another thing: one can apply and try for the SMS over the course of the duration of his NSF, like a grace period of up to 3 years. If he fails, he can try again. I know a number of SMS who only got their awards after the first year of their NS or second and did not get it immediately.This is because SMS is wholly SAF, just like LSA and ATA. Anytime you like, when you enlist or sign on (as a woman), you can apply for these awards.

SAFOS is a creme de la creme talent search exercise conducted once a year, at the same time every year, conferred to a select few, sometimes less than 5 and SAFOS scholars are flown off immediately after they get their 2LTA and sword.

To put things into context, there are lots of 4As or poly people who get SMS. And who get it in subsequent years in their NS years. For SAFOS, most 4A, 2 S distinctions students in OCS cannot get.

To reply why there are so many top JC students who also take up lower rung study award or why so many end up dumping ground courses or in mediocre local universities alongside non-top JC students or poly students is because there are over 1000 students per cohort per JC. This means RJ and HC alone would have over 2000 students graduating every year.

The ones who become the cream of the cohort number less than what, 20? 30? 40? That's not even 2% of the combined A level cohort from RJ and HC per year. 9 out of 10 recipients of SAFOS, SPFOS and OMS are from RJ and HC although it must be stressed there are odd itinerant ones from ACJC.

Gloater SG

Yes it's 3 main categories. Combat, Girls and Engineering/Psychology. I know the third one denotes the course of study but do note that these officers normally take on vocations related to that categories, SAF did state that that is the reason they studied those courses, its for special operational needs. I've not come across a general with a psychology background by discipline before and certainly not one whose vocation is engineering officer in SAF. Overall I'd say SMS is more like ATA, which also has 3 similar categories and is not so much for high fliers.

Gloater SG

Now you might think that SMS is pretty big in SAF judging by its CEP. It must be balanced with the police and civilian equivalents. They are SGS(Singapore Government Scholarship)-Open and SGS-SPF.

I didn't think it was very high. SMS is only equivalent to SGS (non-uniformed in ministries) and SGS-SPF (in SPF). I did not think that was very high, because I know for a fact that there is so much competition already among the many OMS in ministries, i can't imagine what its like for SGS or if they're even noticed.

Govt also made quite sure that SGS's lower status than OMS is expressed in tangible ways eg OMS are automatically emplaced as MAs like SAFOS and SPFOS. SGS is not emplaced even though they're serving in the civil service and also overseas scholars. As a recent scholarship applicant, I'm sure you know this.

Before OMS was cut drastically in numbers in 2002, there were 20 OMS awarded each year. Sometimes up to 25. Can you imagine the bloodbath? I know how intense it is because I've had one too many OMS friends complain about it.

In the ministries and in SAF, local study award holders are not considered scholars.

In the SAF, only SAFOS cum PS (President's Scholars) and SAFOS are scholars. Some of the SAFOS scholars refer to themselves as simply "OS".

edwin3060 SG

Teraexa

Overseas allowance for SAFOS, SMS and ATA SAF Scholars depends on where you go to study, not the scholarship. i.e If a SAFOS and a SMS are both studying in New York University, they will both get the same overseas allowance-- which is pegged to the overseas allowance given by the PSC.

Secondment to civil service can happen during the career of any military officer-- if he performs well enough to get onto the Management Associates Programme.

"As for scholarship in the SAF, when it comes down to the choice of accepting it or not, it really depends on your passion for the organisation."-- Very true.

Gloater

"Lastly and this is the most important one because what matters in one's careers in what YOUR BOSS thinks. Only SAFOS scholars are regarded as scholars in the SAF by the government/SAF."--Not true at all!

Gloater SG

You want to elaborate and back it up? I know this for a fact from top brass, both uniformed and non uniformed.As well as actual OS, who we know are at the top of the pecking order and have access to top tier people. Think about it. The top brass and gens are SAFOS. Why would a person (the Gen in question) think of another person less than what he himself is as his equal? I knew an OS CPT years ago, who only when asked by people in camp if he was a scholar, would he reveal to be one. Afterwhich the next question they ask is, "SMS?". Because SMS is very common and still quite everyday man. No one ever asked "OS?" i thought that was quite funny.

I'm very sure that an SMS or ATA person would tell you otherwise, and if you were an SMS or ATA person, you'll think this way about yourself, because I have heard and come across many ATA people going around telling the world they're scholars, but of cos, no one else thinks they are. Hahah! it's SAF! ATA doesn't even figure anywhere.

No one who has anyone else higher than him can be top. You can't be part of the top when you're below anyone else.

teraexa SG

ATA combat and engineering is one rank below SMS, they are no different from LSA people.

teraexa: you made an error in no.1. Only SAFOS and SPFOS get full salary during studies. OMS does not. They only get the allowance that all overseas scholars including SAFOS and SPFOS, stat board scholars get. The full salary component come from them being uniformed and the cream of PSC (monetary uniformed bait). OMS is not uniformed. SMS gets salary but I rem the salary given is lower than SAFOS even though both may be the same age and thus same rank.

SMS is a wholly SAF award, just like ATA and LSA. To answer the question of nokia_lover further who asked is the difference between SAFOS and SMS really big or just quite small, I believe SAFOS is the one set apart from any award in the SAF. For one, it's the most prestigious the govt has declared after President's Scholarship (overall and not just in SAF).

Third, SAFOS is a top PSC scholarship, alongside SPFOS and OMS.

Fourth, SAFOS is the only one that allows disruption immediately upon receiving the scholarship.

Lastly and this is the most important one because what matters in one's careers in what YOUR BOSS thinks. Only SAFOS scholars are regarded as scholars in the SAF by the government/SAF.

For eg our PM and 1/4 of the ministerial cabinet are SAFOS scholars. The PS/DS of Mindef are SAFOS scholars, not SMS. And SAFOS are all over stat boards and GLCs like CEO of STB, SLA, MAS, LTA, DSTA, MD of Temasek, DBS, chairman of Astar, etc. SAFOS's achievements in non uniformed capacity seems endorsed and supported by the govt but i've not heard a thing about SMS.

To put things into context, there are lots of 4As or poly people who get SMS. And who get it in subsequent years in their NS years. For SAFOS, most 4A, 2 S distinctions students in OCS cannot get.

To put why there are so many top JC students who also take up lower rung study award or why so many end up dumping ground courses or in mediocre local universities alongside non-top JC students or poly students is because there are over 1000 students per cohort per JC. This means RJ and HC alone would have over 2000 students graduating every year. The ones who become the cream of the cohort number less than what, 20? 30? 40? That's not even 2% of the combined A level cohort from RJ and HC per year. 9 out of 10 recipients of SAFOS, SPFOS and OMS are from RJ and HC although it must be stressed there are odd itinerant ones from ACJC.

ATA is now known as SAS (SAF Academic Scholarship). Yes, they are considered half-scholars.

SMS does allow you to disrupt immediately upon acceptance of the scholarship under 3 conditions:

1) You are a SAFOS reject

2) You have good service term results in OCS

3) You have an overseas university place for that academic year

As for the number of SMS given out per year, there's about 13 given this year (including 6 females) so I guess it's now cut down.

As for SMS' CEP, CEP are CEP and many do not even make it. To get to BG as an SMS, you need to be excellent in your performance + there's space for you.

For OMS this year, there are around 20 receipients (a bumper crop).

For SAF scholarships, it is important to note one thing: the earlier you get it, the higher is your Route of Advancement. This is because you get to promote faster, not to mention a higher pay grade earlier. Hence, those who get it in their first year (those SAFOS and fast-tracked SMS) will mostly have faster advancement compared to others although it's NOT always the case.

As for SMS receipients who have done well, sadly I must say I have no knowledge about it. Logically speaking, it would be foolish for SMS receipients to stay in the civil service because there are so many other scholars floating around. Doing well in the private sector, meanwhile, does not mean that the government will 'glorify' you because after all, you used a government's sponsorship to study, serve your bond and go off to the private sector - hardly the 'model' scholars who serve the government in the civil service.

All in all, scholarships are nice to see, good to have, but bear in mind that you literally have to step over others to grab that piece of meat cos the competition is just that high. Also, you have to take into account the bond length. Many a times, scholars regret getting the scholarship (not only SAF ones) because they get bored and want to take up more lucrative jobs but their bond does not permit them to do so.

Think thrice or more before applying for a scholarship. If your motive is to solely go overseas to study, then please do the organisation and you yourself a favour, don't apply cos your lack of passion for the job will harm both parties and cause much unhappiness.

Gloater SG

Teraexa

Secondment to civil service can happen during the career of any military officer-- if he performs well enough to get onto the Management Associates Programme.

edwin3060, would suggest you read properly first the posts.

Teraexa and I are talking about the salary component, not the allowance component.

The discussion above is about salary, NOT allowance.

Allowance is something that all overseas scholars get. SAFOS, SPFOS, OMS, DSTA, MAS, EDB, SIA, SPH overseas scholars get allowance to maintain their overseas living.

It should amount to about S$2K or so per month.

Salary is another matter and only the following uniformed ones get full salary during the duration of their studies (SAFOS, SPFOS and SMS). Non uniformed OMS which is much more prestigious than SMS do not get salary cos they are civilians. The salary component comes from uniform hardship.

ATA gets salary without any allowance, damn lame. So these ATA people end up spending their salary as their allowance.

SAFOS, SPFOS get full salary and allowance. SAFOS salary is that of a A level LTA, about S$2.5K a month in addition to their allowances. Many OS I know invested their salaries in a property or have a stock portfolio of over $100 to $150K by the time they graduate.

SMS get salary but less than SAFOS. Not sure about their allowance.

SAFOS's salary is still higher than SMS because SMS do not get bonuses and generous increments. That was what we were talking abt. Salary. Not allowance.

the Bear SG

they're mostly REMFs scumming off to the canteen or mess whenever they can anyway...

so no matter what you guys say, most are just leeches and a disgrace to the uniform... whatever that is worth these days..

Gloater SG

ATA is now known as SAS (SAF Academic Scholarship). Yes, they are considered half-scholars.

SMS does allow you to disrupt immediately upon acceptance of the scholarship under 3 conditions:

1) You are a SAFOS reject

2) You have good service term results in OCS

3) You have an overseas university place for that academic year

As for the number of SMS given out per year, there's about 13 given this year (including 6 females) so I guess it's now cut down.

As for SMS' CEP, CEP are CEP and many do not even make it. To get to BG as an SMS, you need to be excellent in your performance + there's space for you.

For OMS this year, there are around 20 receipients (a bumper crop).

I didn't know SMS had to fulfil conditions to disrupt immediately. I believe all SMS are SAFOS rejects because they are divided into 2 groups. The ones who got the SMS at the same time as the SAFOS people get their scholarships, and the ones who try at 2nd or 2.5 yr of NSF. The first group probably were in Delta scholar coy in OCS tortured together with the SAFOS potentials. The coy is there to sieve out the SAFOS scholars. The better lot of rejected guys may be offered the SMS- that's the first group. Second group of SMS probably did not even make it to Delta scholar coy during OCS, since they got their SMS later in NS life. The SMS people I know with poorer grades or not so smart ones belong to this 2nd group.

I don't know any SMS scholars holding high profile positions in the ministries, GLCs or stat boards.

Gloater SG

ATA is now known as SAS (SAF Academic Scholarship). Yes, they are considered half-scholars.

On paper, last time even the sia suay PSC low rung teaching awards were called scholarships, if you want to know. It was called Local Teaching Scholarship.What is on paper in name does not translate to perception of the people that matter.Thats why no one in the civil service regarded them as scholars, but the OMS (teaching) and Education Merit Scholars were considered teacher scholars.

Do you really think the cosmetic change in name makes a difference when everyone in SAF knows that it's cosmetic? Whether someone is a scholar or not, isn't decided by the word "scholar" on paper. It's decided by the value perception of his bosses. Do you think anyone thinks different of ATA since the name change? No one in NS is in primary school.

I ask you the same question:Why would a person (the Gen in question) think of another person less than what he himself is as his equal? if you can answer me, come back to me.

Another thing: if you were an ATA, would you dare to call yourself a scholar in SAF and outside? I sure as hell wouldn't. I know some who tell the whole world they are. What they don't know is the response behind their backs.

Gloater SG

The competition among the SAFOS in SAF and the OMS in the ministries from what I know is a bloodbath. Some (not all) would think nothing of backstabbing another to get ahead. Those that do not compete with integrity but they too complain it's a bloodbath and cutthroat. Because of this, back in JC people say for scholarships, the only ones worth accepting are the top 3 PSC ones- SAFOS, SPF version and OMS. Accepting the rest, like low rung stat board ones or others (SGS) will be a waste of time.

Gloater SG

Secondment to civil service can happen during the career of any military officer-- if he performs well enough to get onto the Management Associates Programme.

Are you still feeding on this dream that's told to you on paper?

Can you name me a non SAFOS officer whether is SMS or other farmers who are MA (Management Associates) in MAP or AO(Admin Officers) in the Admin Service?

All SAFOS are MAs. Thats why they get exposed to policy making at MA level while in service in SAF. MA is precursor to AO.

Even stat board and SGS scholars (these 2 groups of people are not emplaced on MAP) are left out in the cold and the odds of any coming to the fore are miniscule.

In their everyday work, being in ministries SGS are doing work infinitely more relevant to policy making (what MAP/Admin Service is all about) albeit at a lower level than OMS/MAs. What is the chance of a military personnel doing anything relevant for him to ever be considered for MAP/AS? I think is 0%.

Stat board scholars traditionally are said to be marginalised. First, stat boards do not do any policy work since they are regulatory/statutory bodies doing the robotic legwork and orchestration while ministries are the brains formulating policies. All stat boards belong to a parent ministry eg STB and EDB under MTI, MAS under MOF, DSTA under Mindef and so on. MTI and MOF formulate policies (done by the president's and OMS scholars) and tell the stat boards under their respective charge what the new rules in town are, then STB, EDB, MAS do the robotic legwork. So stat board staff including its scholars only do robotic legwork done by other mediocre grads, no experience in policy making which is only done at Ministry-level.

Second, worse still stat boards are totally independent of each other. If a DSTA staff wishes to go to MAS, he has to resign and then reapply to MAS. There is no transfer because all stat boards are independent of each other. What this means is a stat board scholars often finds himself stuck in a stat board, with no exposure and only one track movement, with no lateral movement.

Only one group of people, the Admin Officers known as AOs have fluid movement and access to top positions in these three domains: ministries, stat boards and GLCs (four domains for SAFOS AOs plus armed forces), gliding in and out seamlessly.

OMS scholars work in ministries. Movement for them is extremely fluid. They are rotated among different ministries exposed to policy making of an array of portfolios from finance, transport, health to anything at all at the highest level. OMS, like SAFOS are auto MAs. MA is precursor to AO.

Even though stat board scholars are marginalised and don't get any policy making participation and are stuck in one regulatory body with no movement, their work is still more relevant than military officer with no civil service exposure. If the chance of stat board scholars is already so gloomy, the latter group has no chance at all.

Y1w3i SG

Interesting discussion. Gloater, I'm super impressed by the amount of knowledge that you hold. It's like you work in the scholarship department! Haha.

Just like to ask for some opinions. Although its not really relevant to the thread, but heck, I'll take the chance and try my luck.

I cleared the interview for SAS (Military) , USAFA and I'm now waiting for the remaining test and interviews. (that I heard will be coming later.) I'm faced with the dilemma of whether to drop it to a lower SAS (Academic) as I also have a place in Imperial College, Aeronautical Engineering. .

USAFA offers the 2nd Best Aeronautical Degree in the US (Not sure how relevant it is to the rest of the world). The education that you'll receive is unique and probably can't find it anywhere else. (Test flight on t-38 and many other exposures to the USAF workings). One of the draws is that the entire cost of studying (food, lodging, clothing etc) is all provided for and on top of this, you get monthly salary and a small allowance every month. The 4 years spent studying will also be counted towards your year of service due to it being a military academy.

On the other hand, Imperial College is a world reknown education institute, 4 years to obtain a MEng, Aeronautical Engineering. 4 Years of life away from all the military routines and nonsense, during which you'll also get to tour Europe during the vacations. The drawback is the money involved. You'll have to make ends meet using the meagre salary given. After the exchange rate, it's left with only about 1000pounds a month. After 4 years of education and tour, you'll return home with not much left in your pocket.

One thing that I couldn't find out was, how much recognition is given to a 6year old (due to the bond) degree from USAFA? Due to the fact that not many Singaporeans went to USAFA, (16 graduated till date). Both colleges are attractive in their own ways and both awards have their draws. I've weighed all possible factors that each constitute and still couldn't come to a conclusion

Although I do enjoy my work in the RSAF now, but its really tough to say what will the sentiments be 4years later.

I'm a diploma grad and I did relatively well during OCS. I guess that OCS performance was the main reason why i was offered this award.

Comments or advices from the floor?

codexboy SG

sms is definitely not in the league of top scholarships from what i know, the academic req is pretty low as my friend got it with results lower than mine....and i not from ocs thtas why cant get.....the req is like you can secure a place in uni + from ocs, then can le....is mor elike a scheme to entice OCTs to sign on

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