Christian Army Officers association

wonderamazement SG

Race and religion are sensitive issues especially in war...

lam_sheng_hong SG

I wouldn't see why having the MCF would be a problem. It is a fellowship, meaning that its role is not just to evangelise (which must be done with tact), but for the spiritual well-being of Christians in the SAF. They will support one another spiritually.

When they tried to register in 1970, they were not accepted. Note that that year was in wake of racial riots across the whole decade. Perhaps the gov. were weary of such groups which might pose threat to stability?

Even so, it is still a touchy issue, so no surprise there will be opposition.

If correctly applied, Christian teachings and concepts should not discriminate.

Hope this helps.

lam_sheng_hong SG

Sorry, my edit function doesn't work so sorry for the double post but,

I believe that evangelism should be kept to a personal level. It is not a good idea to mate God with the military as an organisation, but it is perfectly okay to mate God with military personnel.

Evangelism can take many forms. A lot

of it is one-to-one which can turn off some people, but that's where evangelists have to be tact. Maybe the organisation should set up some guidelines on evangelism in SAF? (When, where, appropriety of occasion?)

However, such groups should not use SAF resource to spread their word. (I have some MCF tracts. By right, they aren't affliated with SAF and printing is done through FES)

As long as SAF does not endorse it, there won't be much of a problem as it does not support any such group.

I am a Christian posting this up, so if there is any problem with my statement, pls let me know. I'm trying to keep my postings as sensitive to others as possible so if you feel offended by my posting, again let me know.

Unknown_X SG

ok. but i believe it is an informal, unofficial association rather than an SAF recognised body... i may be wrong though.

i dont think it's recognised. just a way for those who believe in their faith strongly to share what they feel i suppose.

edwin3060, yup it's using the saf resources to distirbute christian/catholic resources but they do not force u to read it or anything. in fact, u must have th lobang to get people to add u into the mailing list.

Beyond Religion SG

Even so, it is still a touchy issue, so no surprise there will be opposition.

Yes indeed. This issue has already caused a difference of opinion in this small community of SG forumners. If such military religious organizations are allowed to prevail there is no telling what kind of divide and damage it can cause.

On a separate note I wish to highlight another point; it does not matter whether organizations like MCF is for fellowship of evangelical purposes. Its very existence (especially if endorsed or recognized by the SAF itself) will compromise the cohesiveness of SAF as a fighting organization.

Let me draw an analogy from the accounting profession. We all know that reporting accountants must be independent and objective in their conduct. Hence, the code of ethical conduct for many professional accounting bodies will require its members to “…be, and be seen to be, free of any interest which is incompatible with objectivity and independence.” (Acid test: Would you believe a reporting accountant if he certifies that the Renci hospital is free of any financial and accounting irregularities, if the said accountant is also a student of Ven. Shi Ming Yi?) Likewise, the existence of military-religious organizations (regardless of their mandate) can be seen as compromising the secularity of the SAF, and by extension, our secular government.

Our government is indeed wise to refuse to recognize and register MCF as a society. I agree with you that there won't be much of a problem as long as SAF does not endorse it. However, I am concerned that the MCF is using SAF resources to further its own agenda. As explained above, this may be perceived as SAF giving tacit support to the MCF.

Can you please give more details on how SAF resources is misused as such?

yamizi SG

I will like to divert a little by sharing my experience.

When I was a cadet, the OCS Comd like to have this Comd's parade which will be held monthly and followed by his speech. Due to training schedule, I had (fortunately) attended only 2 times, but they were quite terrible experience because the Comd, after introducing that he has a theology certificate (sorry don't know what qualification is that called), went on to give his supposedly inspiring talk on leadership quoting examples from the Bible. I'm really fine with listening to sermon as I had been to church before, but out of 'respect', sitting there for around an hour and the forbid of visiting the washroom surely had 'impressed' us with all the God-loving talk.

And then came the Christmas where we were treated with ham and log cake, and the Comd went on explaining the usual Christmas-is-not-about-Santa-but-Christ-the-Saviour, etc. There was even a carolling performance given by a group from a church somewhere. I was naive enough to think that it was quite cool to have speech and performance like that. But it ain't happening when comes Vesak or Hari Raya Puasa. They were treated like any other normal PHs.

Is this tacit support? I don't know.

As a buddhist, when comes to the monthly PC interview, I used whatever limited knowledge I know from Buddhism to advise and counsel my men who had problems with no intention of evangelising or converting them.

From an individual's position, it's how we want to use our positions to influence others positively and constructively.

I would have surely hope that there will not be an official recognition of any religious group in the Army. Let's just keep it secular.

edwin3060 SG

Hi yamizi-- That is not tacit support but outright abuse of his position and authority in order to push his religious ideology onto others. This is exactly what I suspect has happened, and it brings me no joy to see my suspicions confirmed.

I would have to say that ALL or almost all evangelisation within the military is wrong-- mainly because the military is a strongly hierachal environment where it would be easy to abuse one's position for the 'good' cause of spreading the message.

I am very sorry that you had to go through that-- given your position at that time I could see that it would be nearly impossible to raise any concerns. I am glad that your recognised that it was inappropriate.

Maybe this thread will raise the interest of the people from SIB and they could look into it (if they haven't already :P)

monoslayer SG

so wats next?

cookhouse tables segregated according to race, religion, skin colours, etc?

lam_sheng_hong SG

Now I would not say all evangelism is wrong in the military. Evangelism is not and should not be forced imposition of religious belief on other people. We should only evangelise if people are willing to be evangelised to.

What is wrong is abusing position in the leadership hierarchy to turn events into evangelical ones. The Forces and the Church are SEPERATE. Keep evangelism to a strictly personal level and it should be fine. It should not be that we make an outreach out of the SAFTI Dining Hall.

On another note, perhaps only mostly Christians are actively trying to evangelise. Note that this is a crucial aspect of their faith. It is, in fact, a command by Jesus to "Go forth and make disciples of all nations."

And another thing. They only attempt to seperate cookhouse tables if the commander of a certain unit hates a certain group of other religious affliation and wants them isolated. Now Christians aren't supposed to hate their neighbour, right?

Again, notify me if this offends you.

cookiecookie SG

they organise crusade against JI and mas selamat

Such irresponsible and flippant remarks are extremely unhelpful and can get you into serious trouble. I strongly advise those who believe that because they're "just" posting on the net, they can mouth off or babble extremist or unsubstantiated things irresponsibly "for fun", many times things they don't even mean, to think twice.

The last time such people did such things on a blog, they went to jail.

More than protecting yourself by refraining from making such actions, it also prevents irresponsible remarks one makes from hurting the feelings of people involved, or sabotaging genuine causes. We're all humans. Let's live through life like it counts.

cookiecookie SG

Again, notify me if this offends you.

I don't think the association seeks to evangelise.

Christians know that many non Christians have this beef against them for supposedly evangelising, and most of the Christians I know do NOT evangelise (no time and can't be bothered).

An association is formed for the betterment and unification of the PEOPLE IN IT. This is the case for almost all associations in the world. And in this example, the MCF also clearly stated that its primary objective is to provide a spiritual MINISTRY for Christian believers in the force.

There are Christian ministries in other armies too, and in the US army alone, there are hundreds. This one is not unique.

All non Christians should only worry if any of its activities affect people OUTSIDE of the association, aka NON Christians in the SAF.

As clearly can be seen, the association's circle of influence is limited to its members aka Christians in the SAF who wish to join it.

I have pasted each of the missions that the MCF officially declares. I will go through each one and if you can find anything to defend your views from mine, pls go ahead.

- To maintain a Christian Fellowship among Christian servicemen and servicewomen in the Armed Forces for worship, witness and service.

- To foster national consciousness and maintain a moral standard among the service personnel through the applications of the principles and ideals of the Christian faith (AMONG ITS MEMBERS).

- To provide a spiritual ministry to servicemen and women in time of military actions for national defence. (Original: To provide counselling to the servicemen and servicewomen).

To maintain a Christian fellowship is to provide Christians in the SAF a platform where they can exchange views and garner spiritual support in a Christian brotherly way. Christians interact with everyone with love, but with other Christians, there exists a Christian fellowship, which is how the term "brother in Christ" comes about. The platform serves to provide this fellowship, and this platform could just as well exist in any other organisation.

Principles and ideals of the Christian faith are applicable to every day life of Christians (whether it's soldier, janitor, housewife, president). And this "everyday life" encompasses work, family, relationships, etc. The association does not exhort its members to evangelise, and clearly if you didnt even know about it until this thread came up, it shows how low profile it is. If its members have gone around evangelising aggressively, as often is the accusation against Christians, how could this association have escaped from the radar of so many people?

In fact your allegation was that the association abuses the SAF HIERARCHY of rank to evangelise?!?! That is a very serious charge and I seriously ask you to retract that false allegation with an apology, when you mouthed that off out of nowhere with no substantiating proof.

If you want to have an idea of how the assocation APPLIES the principles and ideals of the Christian faith, you can read it on "Onward Soldiers Magazine" click on issue June 2006, that issue was dedicated to the life of COL Bernard Tan Cheow Han, who collapsed and died during an Army Biathlon run. He was then ACGS Per, and in an eulogy written by COL (Now BG Tan Chuan Jin), BG Tan wrote about how COL Tan exemplied the life of a Christian man in his daily living, both at work (The way he loved his soldiers, his dedication to the nation), and at home (how much he loved his family). http://www.mcf.org.sg/jun2006_01.html

Spiritual ministry in times of military action simply means providing a counselling and support platform during times of conflict. Being in the military means having to take certain actions or make certain decisions that are necessary for the force and country (even during peace time), but stir certain feelings in you that require spiritual counselling.

There is no witch hunt, crusade, scary propaganda which was all what you had imagined in your mind.

cookiecookie SG

Divisive? Whats so divisive about an association? Every officer regards himself as an officer of the SAF, not of a Christian Army Officers Association.

You got it spot on. All officers in the association see themselves as SAF officers, and also Christians.

They relate to other Christians in the military through the association on matters of spiritual support and ministry, but do not see themselves as anything other than SAF officers in their day to day work and when all's said and done.

Saying that one cannot have an association that is religion-based in the armed forces, is as unconstitutional as saying, because I'm Chinese, I cannot join a Chinese Christian Association. Why? Because the govt (or rather YOU people) claims it may make me see myself as less Chinese than I would have, or cause divisiveness. I may end up only pledging allegiance to OTHER Christian Chinese, and not other Chinese. In that case, why don't we spread this wider, and make it more ridiculous? All Singaporeans cannot join assocations of individual race. Eg Chinese Singaporean Association, SINDA. Why? Cos it may make us identify ourselves by Chinese Singaporean, and not Singaporean, and cause divisiveness.

Basically, this is how ridiculous it is when anyone says a Christian assocation within any form of organisation causes divisiveness. unless of cos you think that the Singapore constitution of nationality is less sacred than any other.

cookiecookie SG

I will like to divert a little by sharing my experience.

Is this tacit support? I don't know.

From an individual's position, it's how we want to use our positions to influence others positively and constructively.

I would have surely hope that there will not be an official recognition of any religious group in the Army. Let's just keep it secular.

Your experience was not caused by the MCF. I hope you can get that clear in your post. Your experience happened, because of ONE person. Your OCS Comd. Not the MCF.

As you said yourself, you used whatever knowledge you gleaned from your own religion to counsel your men. Isn't that your own way of spiritual influence, even if it's not intentional? Yes you stated that you had no intention of evangelising. And I believe you. But that does not mean that your advice was not religion-tainted, REGARDLESS of your intentions.

Next, if you could unwittingly and quite casually give religion-biased counsel to your men, and that is in effect, causing spiritual influence OUTSIDE of your circle of buddhists, don't you think an association that officially LIMITS its influence to WITHIN its circle of members, aka its members (to provide ministry to its own members) is much less harmful than something that is done so frequently, easily and casually by people throughout the SAF?!

cookiecookie SG

Given the sensitive race and religion issues that may well be the crux of any conflict in South East Asia, such a group would be extremely unwise, to say the least. Even in a more homogeneous (religiously speaking, at least) military like the US Army, the issue of religion, and evangelical Christianity in particular, is a perpetual bugbear, with non-Christians being ostracised. In Singapore, the situation would be even worse. For reasons such as these, there should never be any official recognition or support for such an organisation.

Still, what people do in their private time is their own business, within limits. Such an organisation, privately founded and privately run, would be hard to argue against unless there could be demonstrable proof that it was detrimental to the interests of the military. I hope the leaders of this organisation are aware of the dangers that the organisation poses to the stability of the military and society as a whole, and always tread tactfully. In my personal experience, anybody who tries to promote a religion will definitely step on other peoples toes. Given the big hoo-hah about Christian nurses trying to convert patients one or two years back, any attempt to bring the works of these organisation into military life would be heavily frowned upon, as it would undermine the ideals of our military, and our society as a whole.

Shotgun: Would you have the same reaction if you heard that there was a Muslim Army Officers Association? Obviously not right? For this very reason I don't think that a Christian Army Officers Association is a good idea, but as has been mentioned, if these officers are discreet about it and form an association in their private time, so be it.

I disagree strongly with your statement about 'melding the interests of religion and the military'. In a multi-religious society like ours, there is no way that religion can be brought into the military, regardless of the numerous historical and present day precedents, which, I might mention, happen in more religiously homogeneous populations. The stance of the SAF therefore is that religion is your own private business, and, given the circumstances we are in, this is the best stance to take in my opinion.

I found on the net more than a dozen US Army Christian soldiers associations. They seek to provide fellowship for Christian soldiers who are at the war and even during peace time.

I hope you can also prove your allegation "dangers that the organisation poses to the stability of the military and society as a whole".

The assocation has never evanglised, so I hope you can prove to me how providing spiritual fellowship for its own members, can cause "dangers that the organisation poses to the stability of the military and society as a whole".

I had no idea that a subset fellowship WITHIN a bigger organisation can cause "danger to the whole organisation".

That is a very communist/marxist ideology really. The first thing the Mao govt did was to turn the whole nation into a marxist state, and no Chinese was allowed to have a religion or refer to him/herself as anything other than a member of the Chinese Communist Government. Temples, statues of guan yin, universities and university students were razed to the ground by fire and burnt.

Ironically, the ethos that are being espoused in this thread from the reaction to a group within a large organisation are the very values of unconstitution and anti human rights. When such accusations are normally charged against the religious. Hahaha!

cookiecookie SG

So you will find it okay if atheist or agnostic servicemen form a SAF Atheism Association or Agnostism Association and encourage others to join them/convert them?

Please prove to me that the MCF has ever tried to convert a non member. Thanks.

Beyond Religion SG

I will like to divert a little by sharing my experience.

Is this tacit support? I don't know.

From an individual's position, it's how we want to use our positions to influence others positively and constructively.

I would have surely hope that there will not be an official recognition of any religious group in the Army. Let's just keep it secular.

You can counsel your men using Buddhist principles without giving the appearance of propogating Buddhism, because Buddhism's teachings is grounded in experience and wisdom... i.e. you can give your advice as they are and not have to phrase the advice by quoting from some Buddhist religious texts.

I wish I have you as my PC... back in my NS days I have the misfortune to serve under a Christian platoon commander who showed unrestrained favouritism to my other Christian platoon mates. The 1 year or so under him was the worst period of my NS days. Thankfully, he was posted out after Ex Starlight and the replacement PC is a far better officer interms of his command style, leadership, personality and irreligious behaviour.

In the case of the MCF, I happen to think that this organization will not significantly detract from the cohesiveness of the SAF because (1) It has not been given due recognition by the authorities, (2) It is quite obscure. It has been around since the 70s but I only get to hear of it now, and (3) Its web front does not give any indication that it is affiliated to the SAF or other government body. Under the circumstances, the MCF appear to be nothing more than an informal congregation of SAF personnel united by a common faith. Having said that I remain concerned that SAF resources is being misused to serve MCF's agenda.

I remain firmly opposed to the SAF giving tacit or official support and recognition to any religious military subgroups.

lam_sheng_hong SG

Man, I wasn't referring to MCF in that last post. I was responding to edwin3060's post before mine. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

He was saying that "I would have to say that ALL or almost all evangelisation within the military is wrong-- mainly because the military is a strongly hierachal environment where it would be easy to abuse one's position for the 'good' cause of spreading the message."

and so I was referring to this statement to make that post.

Well, MCF AFAIK does not actively evangelise, but it used to produce tracts (you know, those little booklets they hand out on the streets), dunno whether they still do.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

cookiecookie SG

Your accounting analogy is 100% irrelevant to this issue. Because it is totally off-base.

In your analogy, the accountant is tasked to audit another party (external). So any link between internal A to external B, will affect the credibility of A when he's appraising B. A scenario that is correctly analogous would be a pageant judge (internal A) having links with external B (a contestant). eg one of the judges is the husband of one of the contestants. Clearly this is ridiculous and everyone knows internal A has vested interest with external B.

There is nothing analogous with this scenario with having a group within a larger organisation. please explain further how a society within the SAF for some of its personnels can compromise the secularity of SAF. In that case, should we make all regulars robots? They should not have any hobbies, be of any race, have any non military friends.

Please note that human beings are multi facted and multi dimensional. We're not robots. Someone is a husband, a father, a son, a soldier, an officer, a boss, a Christian/Muslim/Taoist, all at once. Having a fellowship within his company (and in this case his company happens to be SAF) that is religious in nature is not going to turn the person into a religious renegade.

cookiecookie SG

I remain firmly opposed to the SAF giving tacit or official support and recognition to any religious military subgroups.

How do you know anything about Christian teachings when you are not a Christian? Christian teachings are most susceptible to misconception by non Christians because of the misunderstandings conveyed by pop culture - of which Christianity is most closely linked due to western culture.

Your claim that buddhist teachings are grounded in "wisdom and experience" already prove your bias in this argument and also portends your ignorance of Christian teachings. Morever as a NON Christian, how do you know how Christian teachings can be conveyed or its "limitations", or even so don't you think it's ridiculous you're saying that as though you KNOW for a fact how ALL CHRISTIANS in this world (all 2.1 billion of us) could influence their speech to others with Christian teachings? I mean, if someone died and made you God, then perhaps you can come back to discussion with some credibility.

Beyond Religion SG

I did not ever say that I expect military personnel to not have any hobbies etc. etc. They are free to do what they want in their spare time, including forming informal worship groups with fellow soldiers. What I take issue is for the SAF to give tacit support to such groups.

Different religions are inherently irreconcilable. Yes, we may emphasize their common points but in essence, they are very different. Eg. Christainity and Buddhism's common teachings is to be "good" etc. But the respective religions are more than just being 'good'. In Christianity you have to accept the Christian God in addition to being 'good' (I was told you still won't go to heaven just by being 'good'). In Buddhism, being 'good' is nice but the true objective of a Buddhist is enlightenment and be awake to the 'truth' (including a certain truth that the is no God in Buddhist belief). I could go on about Islam too but I hope you get my point. Add in the historical/ cultural elements attached to each religion and you see why wars are fought in the name of religion.

We live in a multi-racial/ multicultural society run by a secular government. The SAF is an arm of that government. If the SAF starts allowing religious subgroups within its hierarchy, it will amplify an awareness of "us" against "them" even within the SAF. It will detract from the feeling that "We are SAF soldiers" replace it with "We are Christian/ Muslim/ Buddhist SAF solders".

The soldiers are free to practice their respective faith of course. They can form informal groups as long as the SAF makes it clear that it does not recognize such groups (much like the MCF).

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