PM's son's army gaffe and why we have to worry

last SG · 2007-07-12T21:50:25+00:00

i only know time is fair. everyone get 24 hrs a day.

life2121 SG

aye not trying to spread news or wat lah... jus surprised by wat my fren told me plus dint noe dat tis issue cld b blown to such a big magnitude

anw if its not suitable e mods can take it down rite? Rolling Eyes

Ristar SG

haha... very funny. Laughing

could've made it better if u put it in a card form, kinda like BattleTech, Magic or something similar. Razz

life2121 SG

wahaha well done! ristar! haha

kindaichi83 SG

he really power... these things happens all the time in army and it juz that nobody ever voiced it out...

90% of regulars all eat s**t and help each other one.. the more u complain, the worse ur fate...

gd for him to voice it out.. since he got the power to do so oso...

Hellraiza SG

very true. a soldier is supposed to shut up and do his job. top brass doesn't believe that a lowly lance corporal has views and ideals as well. The only thing that Our Army has thought me is to shut up, don't talk too much, and you bloody well jolly clear your ippt gold, SOC and ATP marksman.

eac SG

dun u think 2lt lee did not consult his dad pm lee over the matter b4 typing the email?

dun u think it is a good way to build young lee's name and a reputation for intregrity and justice b4 entering politics later in the future if young lee also decides to enter politics?

yes, young lee is also punished for broadcasting the email to all in the oa email system. but with his a light sentence, whereas the lta is court martialled and the superior officer given the warning, their saf career is already left with a black mark. issit it worthwhile?

Ristar SG

every crime no matter how big or small, MUST be punished.

too many have gone unpunished, and im glad that the lta and his oc were punished. and i hope, to the fullest extent of the law.

if they gave their careers a bloody damn, they wouldnt have done wat they did.

NSF specs and enlistees are the only ones at the receiving end for too long already. those crap bags must pay.

rookies SG

- email has been posted before. -

rookies SG

- duplicated -

gaoxingdcf SG

what ristar have say it ,we have been at the receiving end for damn too long.... Big or small also we ta... screw those regulars !!!!

AndrewPKYap SG

Please don't forget that he broke Military Law and that makes him a criminal in the eyes of the Military. Of course you might argue that it was a minor violation or argue that General Standing Orders is not Military Law and would not make him criminal under Military Law... still the topic title is correct to say: "PM's son's army gaffe and why we have to worry"

UandMe SG

well, when ur daddy and ah gong own the country, it is just a scolding.

I dun believe he won't continue to sail smoothly through the golden career path that has long been planned for him

Ecxentrique SG

i would perhaps want to contribute something from a different and broader perspective..

Something called the thinking soldier.. in the case presented.. you definitely have got one thinking soldier in the form of 2Lt Li who does think about broader consequences of certain practices or malpractices in the SAF. He is just one out of many.

All this talk about 3G.. it all boils down to something.. soldiers are thinking.. we have on our hands 2 commanders LTA X and the OC who are definitely not thinking harder/ better than they should be when they are confronted by the situation. If they are confronted by a real scenario in battle, they set out certain orders.. and someone comes up with an obviously better solution, i think the chain of command is definitely screwed. In so far as military decisions are being made, i think there should not be a doubt that there should not be room for questions. .people really just obey and so the whole war machine can be effective.. if you have one loose gear who decides to go turn another direction.. engine stall and the whole machine just stops in the midst of war..

I think there is a real cause for worry as to what kind of commanders we really have/ want to have and how they can really lead those who can think better than them.

Do we now still want to just go for the single direction where commanders just command, and people like your average soldier just go by orders and do what they are told to do? Or is there room for collective decision making to tap on the better brains that we have?

I see that more or less, SAF is driving or has been taking the direction where the top brass are filled with thinking people.. i.e. those who are the smart smart scholar types. when it comes to the crunch, i think they can make better decisions and weigh the consequences better. so they got the brains and rank to push things through.. yes admittedly they have no real battle experience.. but what to do? do we really want a war to test them?

the difficult part at hand now is to have the middle and low management filled with people with the same thinking calibre..

another part of this whole case is that 2Lt Li has already seized the "moral high ground". Its not right for him to complain to so many, but it pales in comparison with the wrong that he is complaining about and by cc-ing more people, i think he is also saying that all the other regulars who are doing the same things better wake up also. If SAF mete out punishment that is too harsh to the whistle-blower.. what message is SAF trying to send?

My brother who was a regular specialist, was so full of praise for 2Lt Li's action.. saying that it is really like that, regular regular cover backside.. and even more so if officers.. i hope the top brass really do take a look at the whole situation before this starts to jeopardize national security.

SpecOps87 SG

Correct me if i'm wrong...but the COC is present for a reason. It is to ensure that everything stays inline and incheck and you do not bog the big guy with unnecessary issues. The way I see it, he should have gone to OC->CO-> and the MP's CID unit.

Also, SOPs exist for a reason, when you're instructed to stand post, you stand post until relieved. Simple as that, no arguments.When people get selfish, skip the chain of command and take matters into their own hands, what does this show? You have clearly no respect of the system in place right? No matter how righteous and good the intention is, things have to go step by step. You jolly well follow the COC. I mean even if in the heat of battle, you see an opportunity that your commanders don't you don't simply tell your platoon to charge like a bunch of Rambos...you won't end up with the heroic congratulations like in Hollywood movies, but will most probably get shot for disobeying orders.

Did I go to the Commissioner of Police or the Chief Justice to express my frustration with the police when somebody stole my cousin's IC and used it to sign for a phone line, and the dealer even had a clear mug shot of the thief, yet the police were unable to give a definite answer? I didn't...I just sucked it up man. If this matter were the case, many gov. agencies and stat.boards should also be put on the firing line.

LazerLordz SG

Well, we all can be certain he broke some rules.

However, I must say that if this forces the SAF to clean up it's act with regards to regulars being allowed to "close one eye" one too many times, then it would have been something grudgingly acceptable.

sir sickolot II SG

SpecOps87, while i agree with your points...SOP and COC are made for a reason. The SAF is a uniformed organisation and since it's primary duty is the defence of the nation... her rank and file should have a certain code to follow.

However, I think maybe once you've done time in uniform ( i rem you've not enlisted?) you might change your perspective on such issues. Rules are man made, and in the very dark places and crevices of the military, too many things have been side stepp-ed for the selfish reasons of those who wield power.

cheers

Ristar SG

... in short, the higher ppl climb, the more authority they have to cover up.

LazerLordz SG

Somehow, I just thought that the Thai “Coup for Democracy” example seems pretty apt right now.

SpecOps87 SG

Yes, I agree that the those in the SAF's rank and file should have a certain code to follow, what I'm emphasizing is that Yes, its right because he blew the whistle on an issue he deems wrong, and yes being AWOL while u're supposed to be on duty is a big wrong, compounded by the fact that the offender is an officer and is covered by a fellow officer the OC,he should have expressed this through the proper channels. Who knows, perhaps he got a pat on the back and higher-ups say "Son, well done. We appreciate you for filling us in."

But if it was another 2LT. a commoner whom fires off such an email, he would probably be bent over and humped big time by his OC and CO and perhaps even be charged with being insubordinate, right?Who would then back this 2LT.? He had the good intention, yes?He wanted to ensure that duty is done, yes?Lastly, he also wanted the very best as a citizen whom pays 7% GST on every item he buys and thus seeks the best defense that this 7% is worth, yes?

There's always two ways of looking at things, what I'm emphasizing is that it is very difficult to be 100% fair. Despite the preventive measures (ie. the rulebook/policies) put in place, there's a factor that cannot be controlled no matter how big the organization is and that is the human factor. Unless all employed are robots.

Ristar SG

which is why the PM's son did right, because he has the backing to screw some of those f---tards over and not get KIA.

and, the only thing that is fair in this world is that nothing is fair.

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