The Non-Combat Combat Service Support 3SG Rank

last SG · 2007-07-05T13:20:54+00:00

Speaking of duty.. Once I had three Guard 2IC, one Guard Comd standby duty for public holiday and 4 CDO duties. Not to mention that month was LRI and ISO c...

storm_freaky13 SG

And some 3SGs take pride in what they do.

I found the line about shooting inept commanders very childish and really stupid. If the commander was just not able to perform to the point that the entire platoon/section is in the shit, if you think you can do better then just relieve him of his command. (I'm saying this in the context of combat)

By saying those lines you have thrown whatever credibility right out of the window. Hence, I feel that perhaps the SAF has not seen you fit to be able to be promoted or given a chance to be a 3SG with this kind of mentality and you are feeling sore about it. Call me disrespectful, but you don't deserve it with that line.

What a shame.

BrUtUs SG

flamer detected…

ditzy SG

Last time I served 2 and the half thanks to the 3 stripes ok. Laughing The men under me were all hoping they don't get promoted to corporal, coz they will end up with another half a year more to serve. Their worst fears came true, after I orded, they were sent to sispec.

blitzonic SG

No one wanna spit out the obvious, most suitable response?

"Suck thumb, lah." ~lol~

aknoo123 SG

hey yep bro..ur totally rite on that.. as a 3SG and pes B and a Sec Comd to boot..yeah i have seen my fair share of crappy pes C specs who cant even do a all round defence properly..not to mention doing a proper leap and bound or a proper flanking yet at the same time there are those who really deserve it...my coursemates during my MSCC, some of my men whose actions deserve the rank they wear..and even to some extent i tink i deserve my rank too..not based on juz training mind u...any one can go thru training and be "qualified". i am talking abt their attitude and apitude in their vocations. Some of my men think that cuz they are specs, they can boss their way ard some of the junior men yet they cant even differentiate a transmission from a powerpack!, and as commanders, we are the ones who should step in and keep them in line. mind u, as a 3SG talking to a fellow 3SG, its a whole new different ball game compared to talking to a Pte or Cpl, u cant pull rank..and even as they say in SAF its the appointment that counts, pulling rank is still damn common..that why as commanders we should deal with the problem.

While i can deal with my men who are crappy by making them do stuffs again and again..such as those combat drills and doing it with them to improve section standard, we cannot control how each and every single crap spec thinks and behave. its something i believe our fellow brothers in arms in the logistics/ CSS formation will have to deal with from time to time..

As for commanders, i won't say that our training is exactly the same as BSLC or ASLC, but i believe it is sufficient and fine tuned to the exact requirements of maintenance ops..which is a different ball game together compared to infantry/ combat ops. The stuff my men go thru are fine tuned for maintainance ops only..they would not be fully fit or prepared to lead an infantry section..but when it comes to personal and sectional survival in the battlefield, it should be sufficient in keeping themselves and my section alive..that i haf faith in..since i trained them, and we all were trained under the same model.

eac SG

Rolling Eyes erm.... there are lots of pes b 3sg sect comds in singapore... so there is nth to worth booting abt...

anyway... yes there are the ranks and appointments issues in saf army aside, but i viewed all personnels of all ranks instead based on "individuality". during an exercise, humans are humans... they ought to sometimes err... based on true incident... a 3sg made a mistake while leading his section, then this lcp managed to spot the error and even guide the 3sg the correction. true, a 3sg can order the men below his rank to do work... but he oso shld not goes over the line when delegating assignments. and next time, imho... Rolling Eyes any 3sg... try to speak to a pte/lcp/cpl with tactful friendly way as if he is a friend/colleague instead of viewing him as a lowly ranked suborinate that u just order him ard here and there like a maid. as the saying goes... a commander commands, but respect is to be earned.

LazerLordz SG

I would not base the quality of a non-combat 3SG largely on his/her ability to conduct defence operations or how well he can lead his team in MSR protection.

There's more to it than just the combat component. That's why we have 3SGs in staff or systems engineering roles. Heck, we need them in contract liasion and finance as well.

aknoo123 SG

Originally posted by eac:
:true, a 3sg can order the men below his rank to do work... but he oso shld not goes over the line when delegating assignments. and next time, imho... [b]any 3sg... try to speak to a pte/lcp/cpl with tactful friendly way as if he is a friend/colleague instead of viewing him as a lowly ranked suborinate that u just order him ard here and there like a maid. as the saying goes... a commander commands, but respect is to be earned.[/b]

you are totally rite man... that what functioning in a society is all abt man...to deal with tings objectively and dealing with everyone with respect.. that is the right way of doing things.. ur totally right..that why commanders should earn the respect..any tom dick and harry commander can command..not all can gain and hold the respect of their men..this is something all commanders should learn, and if you hold a rank of a spec, regardless of being a SC or not... you will have to live that talk...cuz in general...specs are higher ranked than the men..thus u haf to lead by example be in you are holding an appt or not.. that why sometimes its quite screwed up to see crap specs..regular or otherwise..

Zeronity SG

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I'm getting from most of the posts in this thread is that people think those non-combat 3SGs use some unorthodox means to get their rank so that they can show how "big" they are.

I don't know what all the non-combat 3SGs think, but I'm pretty sure some of them know in their heart that they didn't get their rank through the standard way, i.e. SISPEC, and are undeserving of their rank by the combat standard. Yes, some of them are utterly blur about the combat stuff and all, but what can they do? Is there an application for demotion of rank? There isn't.

Often, they are delegated crappy tasks that require some sort of leadership skills. Knowing that they may not be able to rise up to the occasion, they can only try their best to carry out the tasks. They are also aware that others know that they are not 3SGs from SISPEC. They are sort of caught in the middle. Too lenient, they may not be able to complete the tasks. Too strict, those of lower ranks may be unhappy about being bossed around by a 3SG not from SISPEC.

I feel that sometimes, non-combat 3SGs have their difficulties and ought to have more understanding from their fellow peers.

LazerLordz SG

This is the issue with many people I've come across. They tend to compare technical/staff 3SGs against combatant 3SGs and this is an unfair comparison.

The rank is there to help you do a certain task in your field of specialistion, be it commanding a section of Guardsmen as a Guards SC, running a manpower branch as an Admin Supervisor or being just a simple tech spec in a depot maintenance section (where the Section IC can be a MSG/2WO).

Can we look beyond simplistic comparisons and try to move away from this notion that if you have not gone through SISPEC, your rank is worthless. If that is the case, why don't we simply close down ATI, OETI, IMOS, SOL, and all the other technical command schools? If there is no respect for your fellow Specialist just because he or she is of a different PES, then even as some combat Specialists distrust their technical or staff counterparts, the opposite will also happen as well.

I have had experiences of Guards Specialists throwing their weight around in my depot and ordering my guys to perform certain tasks like transportation of mortars et al, heavy items that under SOP, they as the sending unit, are required to do by themselves. This was in spite of the fact that me and fellow Specs are there and nearly causing an accident to happen to one of the junior techs.

If we did not have our rank, this chap could have caused a lot more trouble and he might not be easily rebuffed if the ranking tech on the spot was just a CPL facing down a 2SG.

Lastly, everyone I knew never cared about the SISPEC issue. Our rank is rightly earned in our field of specialty, and it would be utterly ridiculous to rate a tech spec on the basis of an infantry leader.Sure, we may be not as proficient as them in combat operations, but can they do a better job than us at MIS or managing armament systems maintanence planning?

Now this is not to say that we are a vindictive bunch, but there are reasons why non-combatants do require a certain junior commander's rank. In the end, the only factor that matters is mutual respect for the task that everyone does.But apparently some people have a huge chip on their shoulders.

Rock^Star SG

Who cares if the person is a fat 3SG or not?

Who cares if the person got his 3SG through the 'theory' way?

They are all specialists in their field, be it storeman, medics, technicians. Everyone has to cooperate as one unit to win the war. The war is not won just because those in combat are fitter.

Can you not see this point?

Who cares if the person is one who 'pulls rank'? It's normal. If one thinks that he is more capable than his superior and that's the mentality throughout, then SAF is in trouble. In times of war, rank matters.

If you excel in your vocation, so be it. Do not look down on those who do 'less push ups', 'run lesser distances', 'unfit yet pull rank'. etc. You will need these people in times of war.

If you have to think your way:

1) Do not expect the technician to fix your tank when it breaks down, just let you be a sitting duck
2) Do not expect the medic to tend to your wounds when you are injured, just let you die
3) Do not expect the storeman to give you battlefield supplies, just let you die

Everyone has to fight as a unit, physcially fit or unfit.

LazerLordz SG

Well said, Rock_Star.

maodini SG

I agree alot with rock star n lazerlordz. To each of it's own spec, each have it's specific role n tasks. If every spec can be good, well, SAF would not exist i guess as there is no such thing as perfect army.

Anyway serving army is only a 2 yr or for some 2.5 yrs stint. Why grudge and complain abt army? why not see the better point and lesson learned in army? why not treasure the friendship and bonds made in that few years. I believe looking at the better things in army would be more pleasant.

will4 SG

If I am interested to be admin spec for reservist, what is the procedure to do so? Smile

kenn3th SG

Due to Human nature, there will always be people who pull their ranks ect.
Yes, you may say that some of them do/ do not deserve their rank of a spec, as they are "big" sized, weak, unfit ect, but dont ever judge a person by it's appearance.

As they do have the knowledge and they specialise in one skill

aknoo123 SG

and thats what i have been trying to say all along..spec are specs cuz they are specialised in their chosen vocation!! dun care ur frm sispec or not..ur frm sispec gd for u..ur specialised in ur combat vocation..u from SOT..great u are specialised in transportation...OETI..tech specs..Hooah! specs in maintenance...Medic specs..specialists in giving immediate n important medical care...! and thats the whole meaning of Specs n the justification of a Spec's rank!!

Juz remember..an army is an well oiled machine...to work..all parts must turn in the way tat is meant to be... SISPEC trained or not.. SPECS, MEN, OFFICERS, DXOs... we all have our part to play.. Smile

eac SG

the 3sg guy posting above me Rolling Eyes ya, i got ur point. but can dun be so xuan yao and too proud of ur 3sg spec rank?

LazerLordz SG

Is that being proud? The points he raises are very valid ones.

Still, when we ever have to fire a shot in anger, every soldier has an important part to play. So don't look down on yourselves or be easily envious of others too.

Rolling Eyes

Twice A Day SG

3sgs are given the rank because of their added responsibility as commanders..
Be it combat or non-combat, their responsibilities compared to normal soldiers are much more taxing.

If u feel that u can take it up and can do a better job...go request for it...and experience it...Believe me..commanders and not just having a rank for nothing...They do what is expected of them and more...

Nikonman SG

Hmmm, what you said might be true. Well my Coy 2IC pal drives a ferrari to ICT while my specs/men drives mercs, BMWs etc and my runner/driver drives a lotus.

Just to share something, I even had a LCP driver with a PhD. We wanted to promote him but there wasn't a need. He was always performing exceptionally well in ICTs until his salary went beyond $99, 999 per month Very Happy NSPC decided not to call him back.

Whether one makes it in life has nothing to do with ICTs la. We always enjoy our ICTs, network and perhaps do businesses during ICTs. When it comes to command decisions, we always must follow la, whether its wrong or right, we all learn something from it and become better and better. Its more important to maintain the espirit de corp within the unit.

Having been combat trained and later converted to a log officer, I have come in contact with the many specs which are not combat trained but performed very well in ICTs. Of course our fair share of specs who cannot make it are mostly due to attitude rather than proficiency. We can impart the skills and knowledge to them but if their attitude is bad, its hard for them to lead men under them. We have placed 1st/2nd sergeants as sect commd/2IC and 3SG as platoon seargeants or even CSM Very Happy

With new threats happening threatening Log units, SOPs were changed to reflect these changes and now our men was asked to practice drills like anti-ambush drills, leap and bound, flanking, all round defence etc which is very siong for pes C men but we all take it in our strides and yes, we do trust them to cover our asses in times of war and not shoot us in a friendly fire incident Smile The men were also critical of the SOPs and contribute valuable suggestions. For example, they requested for every section to have at least a SAW, M203 or even a LAW/Matadoor and a GPMG section for the company even though they might be asked to carry more stuff/train on new stuff and become more siong. But we rather protect ourselves in times of war than to let the combat units attached to us "protecting" us. Wink

Its all about attitude la.

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