Sq 117 hijack

last SG · 2006-05-14T22:57:37+00:00

You might be surprised.. but the weapons used at that time was not MP5. They used M16 to storm the plane. Yes, i feel it is abit unwieldy to use M16, but...

Icemoon SG

From hindsight, it seems that the possibility of casualites is much reduced. So even if the SOF were below par, high chance the results will be the sme - 4 idiots dead.

That's why the op is not a good benchmark of their abilities or inabilities.

By the way, what explosives did the 4 idiots carry?

Gedanken SG

Disagree. They could have set the aircraft alight like EgyptAir 648, killing passengers, or they could have shot friendlies like D81 did. The fact that they didn't do anything like that in itself demonstrates that they're not below par.

Icemoon SG

Isn't it SOP to assemble the non-casualties on the tarmac? How did Resaq slip out of the crowd?

Or he was feigning injuries and they whisked him off into the ambulance, without joining the crowd?

Gedanken SG

No, he was actually injured, and that's probably why he got shipped off without being fully checked out.

Icemoon SG

Well, you do have a point here. I missed the pre-storming part. I think opening cabin doors, as mundane as they seem, plays an important part and need special skills like during Marseilles.

To shoot friendlies is an unpardonable sin. I say they are below below par.

Icemoon SG

You are right. This is a loophole. How do you clear someone who is injuried?

Gedanken SG

Yup. Look, what say you we reach a compromise? The circumstances of SQ117 are not enough to stamp SOF as being the best in the world. At the same time, having achieved 100% of their mission objectives, they have shown that they are perfectly capable of doing what is expected from a CT team which, as we have seen, is not something that can always be assumed. Fair enough?

Gedanken SG

Good question. Apart from ID checks and listening to the other passengers, I don't really know what the SOP for that is.

Icemoon SG

It is uncanny perfect to me, that's why I refuse to see it as a good benchmark. It is either:

1. we are really the best in the world
2. the mission was very much simplistic (planning, execution, enemy level).

Yea, at least they got their drills right and their skills are there. At least they could open the door without the plane catching fire.

As a sidenote, do you think the Indonesian president dare to sit inside the D81 killing house after their fiasco?

bcoy SG

Some more summarised information on Sq117 (based on Sumiko Tans Book)

Shahid Hussain Soomro was in the cockpit continuing with the countdown when an Urdu speaking police negotiator spoke to him. This caused a distraction in which Fida Mohammad Khan Jaboon joined him. The hijackers thought that they have made contact with Pakistan.

Signal given raid begins.

Khan is eliminated first, followed by Shahid. (In the book, there is lots of over dramatised information) I assume Khan was standing at the door of the cockpit while Shalid was in the cockpit itself.

Third hijacker (I will quote the book) Hijacker Javed Akhtar Kayani was near the front of the plane, walking towards the cockpit. When he saw the commandos running in, he grabbed a woman passenger to shield himself from the masked men. But he was blown away within seconds, and the woman was freed.
Sumiko Tans book made no mentioned of another passenger pulling her away.

Also from the book -
Mohammad Yosaf Mughal was slightly further back in the aircraft. At the sight of the commandos. He fearfully threw his canister onto the floor. A commando scooped it up and, point-blank, finished off the hijacker.
Canister in this case refers to the sticks of firecrackers (post-investigation), which the air steward reported earlier as appearing to be sticks of dynamite.

will4 SG

I think as an Indonesian myself, the answer likely to be no. There is also
other counter terrorist unit in Indonesia from the Navy or Air Force.

Gedanken SG

Nothing uncanny about it at all, Icemoon. While I was at 1 CDO, I had the chance to watch these guys train, and I can tell you that they don't muck about. Rest assured that we're up there with the best of them. Without going into too much detail, the current SOF commander topped the SF course in the US, beating even their local trainees to the top spot. This officer was one of several men in my NS company who went to SOF, and I can tell you firsthand that they are in fact that good.

The truth, I suspect, is somewhere between the two options you have listed. In carrying out the mission, I don't see anything that the SAS, GSG9 or Delta could have done better, but on the other hand, the situation wasn't complicated by the terrorists possessing automatic weapons or remotely detonated explosives.

As an analogy, driving safely to the office and back doesn't automatically make you the world's best driver, but it doesn't rule you out either. It's just that the circumstances are inadequate to prove either conclusion.

Icemoon SG

Opps .. I might be wrong then. If the CT took the shot with the hostage in front, then I cannot but say his skill is really good. After all, even snipers need to carefully aim before they take such a shot.

Fearfully threw his canister? Not light it up meh? Why did the commando scoop up the canister?

Icemoon SG

Topped SF course .. was he featured in ST or Pioneer? Last time the papers featured this red beret topping the SF course also. These people featured will thank their wife or gf for giving them support blah blah .. haha

Well, I am pretty sure our SOF are way better than D81 or the Egyptian one. In fact, Teo CH could have sit inside their killing house and come out in one piece. Wink

The part in blue .. wasn't that my whole point??

Gedanken SG

Not quite. Like I said, given the situation, the best in the world would have done it the same way, and that’s credit in itself, given that some other CT teams wouldn’t.

Gedanken SG

Quite possibly. I'd left for Australia by that time, so I didn't get my Pioneer subscription anymore. Anyway, he's a quiet sort of lad, so I don't know if he'd launch into an Oscar acceptance speech. Laughing

Hmm - given that the man is not very popular at all in the formation, I think he would be foolish to enter the killing house. Laughing

JLennon SG

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. Stuff like CT and SOF is something I certainly don't know much but crave to learn more.

Icemoon, after reading posts by Gedanken and storywolf, would you not agree that labelling Singapore's SOF 'below par' is harsh considering that SQ117 was a well-executed mission? The analogy that I can do something simple should not lead to the conclusion that my capabilities are below average.

bcoy SG

Just to correct some information about the Garuda hijack ("Woyla" ) .

Detachment 81 did not exist at that time. The team was made of commando volunteers available at that point of time.
The team was provided with Uzis and Beretta .22 by General Moerdani himself, in his office, about 48 hours before the rescue. (Do generals keep a private stash of firearms in their office?)
Detachment 81 was formed only after the Woyla incident in 1981 - hence the team is called Detachment "81". Today, the team is a very well trained full-time dedicated unit.

Gedanken SG

JL, to be fair I don't think Icemoon has said that SOF is below par. What he seems to be saying is that the SQ117 mission is not one that marks SOF as being amongst the best. From different angles, he's both right and wrong.

As hostage scenarios go, there have been a lot worse than SQ117, and if you look at it that way, Icemoon is right in saying that it's not a mission that nobody else could have pulled off.

On the other hand, those of us who have had some experience (and also some of the more astute observers) would note that the scenario doesn't have to be very complicated for things to go pear-shaped. As an example, blowing the aircraft doors with charges is SOP for aircraft storming, but just because everybody does it doesn't mean that it's easy to do it right all the time, as EgyptAir 648 demonstrates.

Insofar as SOF carried everything out perfectly, I'd say that SQ117's execution puts them up there with the best of the CT world. You can't go past 100%, but you can easily go below it.

Gedanken SG

Double post.

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