Will you shoot your countrymen?

last SG · 2005-04-25T21:47:24+00:00

Yaay i win! Anyway, whether or not the guy will be charged will depend very much on the ROE in place at the time and whether or not he followed the ROE.

lwflee SG

Guys, say one day you are on Mob and you are called back to deal with say 10000 peaceful protestors just sitting infront of parliament. Parliament in currently in session, and the protestors are calling for the resignation of the Trade and Industry minister who they feel was responsible for a recent industrial accident that resulted in the deaths of 100s.

Orders are to disperse them through use of non lethal force. However, they are proving to be very resilent and have vowed to stay until the government addresses their grievances. CS gas, water cannons and Rubber grenades have been deployed angering the protestors and they are now threatening to storm parliament.

You are part of a security force tasked with preventing people from breaching parliament. Use of deadly force has now been authorised.

Will you shoot these protestors? I have heard many instances of ppl here who say that they will fight only for their families and friends.

Personally, i would have a lot of problems shooting these people...

MODS: If you feel this topic touches on issues that are too sensitive, then feel free to delete the topic. Shoot me a PM though. Thanks.

LazerLordz SG

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=891056#891056

MOD's note.Please continue the discussion here.

LazerLordz SG

duplicated.

wuming78 SG

after an internal discussion, i think this thread can be reopened.

the topic is debatable. and anyway, we can widen the scope too:

say during an operation, if you discover that your peers intend to desert or even deflect. what would you do if the situation between yourself and them heats up? at the extreme, would you shoot any one of them?

and what about if someone is spreading rumours amongst your troops, and causing morale and discipline problems, also during operations?

or maybe, under what circumstances would shooting one's own guy(s) be acceptable to you?

anyway, if this thread eventually goes no where, or just dwells in a certain direction, then we would close it again.

Respect_the_dead SG

i will shoot my ex-officer in a chaotic situation. Twisted Evil

crazy monkey SG

Singaporean wont go for demostrastion in the first place.

There are effective non-lethal means of dealing with a mob if there is one.

LazerLordz SG

There are indeed non-lethal ways, if these are not explored and an order comes down to shoot to kill instead..I know where my guns will be pointing.

deathscythe99 SG

Laughing

lwflee SG

That is quite irrelevant isn't it. As mentioned in the scenario above, non-lethal means have been employed and have failed. It has happened b4.

The government doesn't have my support at all. Will i shoot my countrymen in order to keep them in power? I find that a difficult question to answer

I think this is where Singapore is very vulnerable. In its pursuit of the very best in technology, the SAF has neglected its most important asset. It has created soldiers that would fight only to protect their families and friends. The oath to protect the state has become mere lip service.

I guess that's where the Gurkhas comes in.

LazerLordz SG

And God help the Gurkhas if they threaten our families.

We fight to protect the nation and our loved ones,however the legality of an order is determined by the real intent of the government.Singapore will come first, so will her people.I don't think we will kill if the government gives an unlawful order.

crazy monkey SG

Mob control is job of the police.

chunyong SG

I won’t hesitate to shoot my own comrades. I am all it matters, they can die for all they care, less people survive then can have a more ‘uniform’ story to tell….somethings must be buried and are buried with the dead.

specfore SG

No, I would be extremely careful not to shoot anyone , Singaporean or not in a non-military / non- police situation. We have to be careful nowadays... the SAF may authorise you to shoot civilians under certain circumstances (e.g. control of looters in a town), and it may be legitimate under SAF regulations and Singapore law.

However, the problem is that the United Nations and the USA, have a tendency to be the ultimate policemen of the world. If they hear that SAF soldiers have shot civilian looters in our AOC, they may force the government to investigate/ prosecute , or worse, they may attempt to arrest SAF soldiers under international law. Plus, nowadays, the world will know about such incidents very quickly, almost real-time, because of the sheer number of media people that are sent to cover hotspots. These journalists and reporters are also very eager and aggressive and will find out the story.

Times have changed for soldiers since the Vietnam War. How we treat POWs and civilians in our AOC will be scrutinised by the world.

snk86 SG

well, seriously, have there been a situwation where after rubber rounds are use, the crowds don’t go scrabling for cover? i mean, ok, might be possible if we sre talking about big size europeans and super bug size maoist, but asians? don’t think so…

lwflee SG

Mexicans. Police charged them. They Charged back with molotov cocktails.

LazerLordz SG

Very true.We live in a world where acts of policing are watched by eyes around the world.

snk86 SG

well, they attack you, means they are saying "bring it on!".

so once they charge, you can guiltlessly fire back.

oxford mushroom SG

Shooting unarmed civilians can be a crime. Even in war, that may be construed to constitute a war crime. If it goes against the Geneva Convention the order may be illegal and there is no obligation to carry out an illegal order.

German and Japanese soldiers were executed after WWII for such crimes against unarmed civilians, although they said they were only following orders. Not a valid defence...

LazerLordz SG

Yes.So as soldiers and commanders, we have to bear in mind international law and not shoot unarmed civilians.But the sad thing is that some riot police instigate the civilians to turn violent so that they can fire back in self-defence.

YI SG

they probably wanted to call it a day and went home to their family. these stand-off can take forever.. esp when the turn-ups double in mere hours..