Witness relates dunking death of soldier

last SG · 2004-09-25T12:58:18+00:00

Uh, why's this topic unlocked again? Not that I'm complaining - Moxie will just be in for another caning this way!

kwlee SG

what the .... how are they suppose to do that?

Moxie SG

I believe nobody wants to kill that soldier, not even the 4 instructors in question.

That's why they're charged as "causing death/grievous hurt with a rash act", as opposed to something more severe.

For better or worse, an independent COI wouldn't have been convened if if there hadn't been a death casualty. I have my doubts on whether the SAF would've involved the "outside" CID if, say, some of the victims successfully brought the abuses to the attention of their Members of Parliament.

I'm curious to see what sort of defence the accused will make. Thus far, it appears they wanna claim that the depravity was established SOP "on the ground" (regardless of whatever the training manual prescribes), & maybe the instructors themselves - like some of the CDO posters here - misinterpreted what's to be acceptable modus operandi after recently going through the unauthorized training itself.

For the record, MINDEF has a legal rep attending as watching brief, & I think he's there partly to identify issues of potential concern. IMO Whatever is revealed in the court proceedings could have ramifications on the training methods of the SAF (if not just the Commandos), with perhaps a few more regulars' careers under threat (possibly with certain prosecution witnesses as well).

hermez SG

my friend, you speak like a man who has never lost a loved one, "THE TRAINEE'S DEATH HAS A LARGER IMPACT ON HIS FAMILY IN THE SHORT TERM BUT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO MOVE ON"???

Have you COMPLETELY lost your mind, or has your (presumably) commando pride gotten to your head and hollowed it out finally?

Do you imagine that 20 years from now, Sgt Hu's father will have MOVED ON??? Do you think that, as he lies awake in bed, watching the ceiling, that he will FORGET that he had a son? In his old age, as he struggles to pay his medical bills with his dwindling cpf, do you think he will CONVENIENTLY NOT REMEMBER what happened to his 19 year old son? DO YOU THINK HIS GRIEF WILL BE SOMEHOW LESS THAN THAT OF THESE FOUR USELESS SODS WHO ARE CHARGED WITH NOTHING MORE THAN A "rash act endangering life not amounting to culpable homicide?"

Yes, no doubt you've read moxie's message about the likely outcome of the punishment involved. Brilliant. 4 years, 38,000 singapore dollars and a career gone down the drain. Oh how sad. I really do FEEL for these people.

As i walk the hospital wards everyday, watching my friends spend long nights struggling to save the life of a 70 year old ah mah, with her teenage grandchildren standing by her bedside, watching and praying for her life, i will remember how the rash, no, VICIOUS acts commited by these 4 took the life, not of a seventy year old lady stricken with cancer and congestive cardiac failure, but that of a healthy 19 year old man, with all of life's love and potential gone in an instant.

I may not be able to personally comment on dear WO Bala's behaviour, not having known him personally, but i have heard enough of commando-guardsmen eminity, or DRUNK regulars, of abuse of SAF regulation and of intoxication with power to easily understand what happened, with or without a trial.

Abuse of SAF regulation? oh yes, the SAF HAS regualtions, i almost forgot. Let me tell you about SAF regulation. You know about that rule that about being charged 4 times before your S1 can throw you in DB? EVER HEARD THE STORY OF MY BN mate WHO WAS CHARGED FOUR TIMES IN A ROW so that they could throw him into DB immediately? Oh how about pec status? Pec E NSFs arent supposed to go ourfield are they? HOW ABOUT THE CLERK WHO WENT OUTFIELD MORE TIMES THAN I CAN COUNT? Oh wait, i'm a combat signaller (YES, ME) on permenant excuse for camoflage paint because i develop a dermatological allergic reaction to a preservative in the paint. I WONDER WHAT I WAS DOING WITH CAMO PAINT ON MY FACE DURING MY BN ATEC? Oh yes, SAF accounts. They DO HAVE financial accounting dont they? Does anyone want to take a closer look at recent ATEC s4 accounting? How about my friend the platoon clerk, who was shouted at and verbally abused EVERYDAY, FOR THE WHOLE DAY BY A MORE OFTEN THAN NOT DRUNK platoon warrant officer. What happened to him when he had a mental breakdown and hid BEHIND A DUSTBIN to get away from the WO? Why couldnt the MO even give him an MC on psychological grounds? Why did the MO have to PRETEND THAT HE HAD A RESPIRATORY PROBLEM to secure him a downgrade?

Oh the list goes on. You want to hear it all one day? Drop me a mail. It might take you more than a day to read it though.

f***.

That's what i think of SAF regulation and law. it's not for grunts on the ground like the rest of us. It's reserved for that wonderful 5 star general and his son, sitting comfortably in his office to convince himself that there isnt any abuse going on right under his own nose. Or for the SAF WO who's recently killed someone to save his neck from hanging in the noose.

For the rest of us, for sgt hu's family, there's "oh i'm so sorry we killed your son, maybe we'll let your next son become a clerk. Until then, oh dont worry about these chaps, you'll soon forget them. Bye bye, ta ta. Have a nice day"

I'm sorry. I really am. To all friends of the injured and deceased out there, i apologise if i've awoken feelings of sorrow. But there remains an attitude out there in the SAF that badly needs to be addressed.

I entered the SAF full of hope, believing that i could contruibute to the defence of my country. On the day i ORDed, i understood finally, how absolutely wrong one can be.

The old lie:

"dulce decorum est, pro patria mori"

[email protected] SG

with regards to WO Bala, I've heard from many that he is professional. Indeed, I believe he was dragged down into this mire by those unprofessional officers. In this case, it is very clear cut who are the main culprits at hand. I do pity WO Bala for being dragged into this mess as a scapegoat.

hermez SG

oh i almost forgot, singapore has no 5 star generals, It must be a 4 star general and his whtie horse son that sits comfortably in his office convincing himself that SAF regualtions work then.

Gordonator SG

from the straits time interactive

Dunking 'okay' if done safely, says ex-instructor
By Selina Lum

COMBAT survival trainees undergoing mock interrogation should not be dunked in water, according to the training guide, but a former instructor yesterday conceded that dunking was 'okay', as long as it was done safely.

Warrant Officer Anbarasan Velu (above), who had helped to review the lesson plan for the course in 1998, was testifying in the trial of four commandos accused of rashly causing the death of Second Sergeant Hu Enhuai.

The 19-year-old full-time national serviceman died after he was repeatedly dunked into a tub of water during combat survival training at Pulau Tekong on Aug 21 last year.

Another soldier who was dunked, Captain Ho Wan Huo, 26, a regular, was severely injured.

The four accused commandos are Capt Pandiaraj Mayandi, 33; Lieutenant Ng Chin Fong, 27; Lt Divanandhari Ambat Chandrasekharan, 28; and WO S. Balakrishnan, 45.

Yesterday, WO Anbarasan, the first witness who has conducted the course, told a district court that instructors should not have physical contact with trainees except when leading them to the stations.

Trainees should only be sprayed with water or have water poured on them, and at no time should their heads be dunked into water, he said.

In fact, to make it clear to instructors, when he and WO Alex Quah reviewed the guide, they included a picture to show a trainee lying on the ground being sprayed with water.

But during cross-examination, defence lawyer Selva K. Naidu pointed out that the lesson plan states the trainees should be 'doused with cold water during questioning'.

According to the Oxford Concise Dictionary 9th Edition, he said, 'douse' can either mean 'to plunge into water' or 'to throw water over'.

Which method was the witness referring to, he asked.

WO Anbarasan replied: 'Either way would be okay, provided safety was not compromised.'

Mr Naidu, who is acting for Pandiaraj, referred to the combat survival training management programme, which states that the training must be 'tough', 'demanding' and 'replicate actual battle conditions'.

In the light of this, asked the lawyer, which of the two meanings better fit the requirements laid down in the programme. WO Anbarasan said he did not know.

Further questioned by Mr Naidu, he said he was not aware of any combat survival trainee - prior to 2nd Sgt Hu's group, the 80th batch - being plunged into water.

He disagreed with Mr Gurcharanjit S. Hundal when the lawyer said that he was, in fact, one of two warrant officers who had taught Divanandhari how to dunk trainees.

The warrant officer had told the court that when he conducted the mock interrogations between 1994 and 1999, he used a long hose attached to a water tap to spray trainees who were in a kneeling position.

Mr Naidu also asked WO Anbarasan if he knew there were no taps at Kampung Permatang, where the fateful training was conducted. He replied: 'There are no taps.'

The trial continues.

Goondu74 SG

When did i ever said we are able to train to endure torture? and there IS blood on their hands! At no point did i said no blood.

vroomvroom SG

u all here fark each other, debate so much for what??
can we bring the dead back?
do u think by arguing your points, certain system will be change?
do u think by farking each other, future death due to violation in TSR can be totally eradicated?

No matter how cock and screw up SAF is, there is no denying tt it is a vital organisation to the well-being of our country.

Death, be it negligent, ill-treatment or other act in violation of TSR will and can never be totally eradicated from any military system.

Instead of getting emotional and hot headed over this issue, Why not just let the court decides on the proceeding?

What done cannot be undone.
Why not just wait for the court ruling before commenting on this case again?

[email protected] SG

HA! if its as cock up n screwed up as it is, then is its vitality for real? or is it MERELY A GODAMN ILLUSION? n u must have your head in the clouds if u think we're anything but dead if anyone around us decides to invade. Go se your alarm clock or something. U need to wake up.

mfscrewu SG

For your info, I have lost someone whom I love and respect a lot not to an incident like this but to disease. But I don't go around in a daze and tell myself that everything in life is over. I picked myself up and moved on with life. Yes, memories of him does come back to me, but over the years, the pain has lessen very much. Hence your first assumption is wrong.

For your next assumption, in no circumtances did I say I was a commando. Again you assume based on what I write. Didn't you learn that assumption is the mother of all F.U.C.K ups. I did not post here to start an arguement. If you want to carry on to be offensive in your language, expect the same from me. Stupid, brainless thick-in-the-head ARSEHOLE! What I post here is merely my comment, at no point did I force anyone to agree with me. You have your bloody right to disagree, and so do I have my goddamn given right to put foward my comments.

In your arguement, you speculated or predicted that his father is unable to move on. Until some time after this incident has passed, this is something you will not be able to be certain of. In my point, it is based solely on my experience and conversations with help groups counsellor that majority of the population who have encountered death of their love ones are able to move on.

How you feel about the accused is your own business, I have no intention to know.

Life is full of unpredictable, be it an act of nature or human intervention. The constructive way is to review the cause of death and reduce the possibility of it happening.

Based on what you heard, you assume that you the whole of CDO and possibiliy of SAF is screw-up. So for example, if you are caught lying to your superior just this one time, can he brand you a habitual liar? In any organisation, there are bound to be bad hats. What is important is that bad hats like these are tracked down and be flushed out of the organisation ASAP. Too right you are, that you are unable to comment on WO Balakrishnan, you never trained under him, and you don't know him personally.

No, I am not interested to hear your b.i.t.c.hing. You can keep your bedtime stories for yourself.

Do it to yourself, it is cheaper and safer.

There is no 5-star or 4-star general in SAF. Again what you think is your right to do so.

Are you sorry for the trainee's death or are you just trying to win some compassion for yourself? That's a point only you yourself know.

This is your opinion and I have no right to comment.

NathanG5 SG

dont waste my time fren..read your 1st post n tell me that..

NathanG5 SG

Accused commando trainers did not follow training plan: chief instructor
By S Ramesh, Channel NewsAsia

SINGAPORE : The current chief instructor at the School of Commandos has testified that the four commando trainers accused of causing the death of a trainee did not follow the approved training plan.

Major Yeo Hock Seng says the commando trainers should never have interrogated the prisoner of war trainees individually.

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Second Sergeant Hu Enhuai died after he was dunked repeatedly.

Major Yeo testified that during the water treatment phase of the combat survival course, the trainee prisoners of war are supposed to be divided into two groups, and then sprayed with a hose as a group.

So when the commando chief instructor was shown pictures of trainees being taken one-by-one to the square tub of water during the ill-fated course, Major Yeo told the court that what the trainers had done did not tally with the approved lesson plan.

"There is a potential for man-handling. There is a potential for water to be forced ... and there is a potential for individual prisoners of war to be targeted," he said.

The School of Commando's chief instructor told the court that its not necessary that everything that is being taught in the classroom for the trainees undergoing the prisoner of war lessons need to be executed on the ground.

He said when it comes to carrying out the training on the ground, the trainees' safety remains paramount and this should not be compromised.

Major Yeo also told the court that if the training area did not have a tap so the trainees could be doused using a hose, then the lesson should have been moved.

He said there are two other locations on Pulau Tekong, where he had conducted combat survival training, which had taps.

Asked if simply spraying water on the trainees using a hose was enough to recreate what might happen to prisoners of war, the commando chief instructor told the court he would not know; after all he had never been in a war. - CNA

Moxie SG

Guys - again - calm down.

On the issue of "moving on", IMO it's gonne be the SAF who'll unfortunately have the (institutional) capacity of doing that more. That's why I stated that I hope the whole tragedy will prompt it to profoundly rethink the attitude of its training, rather than just narrow down to the methods - which is what they're currently debating in court.

Believe me, the initial shock on the parents' side can never been forgotten. Imagine them doing their normal routine at home & then suddenly getting a call saying their son's been in a serious training accident (prior to discovering it's the result of a rogue act). It must've seemed even more improbable to the families since their sons are established soldiers: Sgt. Hu being a sniper & Capt. Ho a regular.

By contrast, the M113 accident my unit was involved in affected "merely" conscripts. Many crabs & stars came down for the military funeral at Mount Vernon, but nobody except a bunch of Hokkien peng cared enough to organize Taoist rites came the 1st death anniversary (we were still "active" then). My "scholar" BC, otherwise a nice guy, was already posted out to his next career stop by then - with forseeably no black mark on his resume.

The irony is I befriended 2 NUS hostelites who served subsequently in the same army camp as me, & it's the Armour guy who still recalled the tragedy (via word of mouth). The Arty guy said instead that my unit, with the new intake of both officer corps & men, made a conscious attempt to "move on". WTF? Forget so quickly?

[email protected] SG

not just his family. can u imagine the shock we(his friends) got? and how betrayed we felt? esp when we knew what exactly happened?

Moxie SG

not just his family. can u imagine the shock we(his friends) got? and how betrayed we felt? esp when we knew what exactly happened?

Oh yeah, momentially overlooked the fact that the whole thing happened while they were on course.

In which case - with due respect to the Commando sense of fraternity - a training school could potentially "move on" quicker since, except for the cadre personnel, they wouldn't have the in-built comradarie which a combat outfit has.

[Request for any lurking fellow Guardsmen of Sgt. Hu: post something here on his death anniversary (if you guys haven't ORD'd) & let us know how much the SAF still remembers him by then.]

I can emphasize with what the friends/colleagues felt, since I myself got voluntarily treated for PTSD symptoms only during my 2nd academic year at NUS - way after I ORD'd.

The army never allowed us to grieve properly - the RSM even marched us around the parade square for 3 straight days, learning the "tonk-sang senja ta" funeral drills repeatedly - & I suppose thereafter each of us found our own clutch in our own ways. My battery ended up infamous for 100% book-outs, 2359-ish "bulk" book-ins, plus countless late nights (many surviving on 3-4 hours' sleep, mahjong-gambling in the bunks or talking-cock sessions out in the field).

In some sense it f^cked me up for the rest of my 20something years too. Advice: Go for counseling sessions, bro - if only to verbally open up your frustrations. Don't cramp it up all inside or wish it away.

That said, I won't take away the fact that it's the family who suffers the ultimate heartbreaker - imagine the initial panic/confusion, the wholly-unnatural reality of parents having to bury their children ... ~shakes head~

[email protected] SG

im glad there r ppl who still think like u do. unfortunately not everyone here seems to have that sort of humanity about them anymore.

crosshairs SG

There is no need to undermine other people's humanity. If you believe you have yours, keep it to yourself, and let them keep theirs.

crosshairs SG

To some of the forumers here,

If you want to appease your anger, kindly direct it at the ones responsible, and stop inciting inter-unit animosity. The truth is we all were brothers and friends until we got drafted into different units and for some strange reasons and traditions had to assume roles that made one hate the other for no apparent reason. If you want to point your finger at someone, you will have to face him. If you want to drag 2 or more units into this, you will have to face all of them. If you think you lack the capacity to do that, then stop now.

There is no such thing as commando-guardsmen eminity. Servicemen enter and leave so fast, there is no one left to carry on the hate unless you want to put the blame on the regulars. Those who feel that they have been unfairly treated by the guys from "the other camp" should bring the issue up the the CO of that unit or alternatively complain to their mothers or girlfriends.

In my experience, it's people who go around spouting anti-unit gossips that starts the fights.

SibeiSuayKia SG

icic sad story to hear what has happened

kwlee SG

Wow, this is the 100th reply of the thread le… hmm, i posted updates on the new on my blog @ http://shifty.tanfwc.net if u want can visit it .

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