The world is logically fallacious

last SG · 2012-07-03T12:27:16+00:00

Then I submit that one cannot go from "the universe is complex" to "God is more complex than the universe" since the former is a physical entity whereas the...

OscarLeegacy SG

As the title says, what do you guy's think?

There need not be a form of greater order within the chaos of our lives.
What i mean to say is, looking from the exterior, everything seems to fit in perfectly, society, ecosystems, the globe, in general, seems to fall into place.

Of course, there is discrepancies in this order, and because of that, displacement of some sort occurs. Eventually the lack of adaptability may cause some form of permeanant change in this universal system. But all these aside, isn't anyone but myself amazed at how people with different thinking capabilities, perspectives and dreams and vision, miracously fall into place like a well fit puzzle?

I'm not sure if i managed to put what is in my head into words and present it in a logical manner, but what i meant to say is.. The world isn't a programme, it's not a computer where you can compute a function and it runs over and over again without fail. But look, somehow, this does happen, and in a very natural way too.

Nobody told the universe that after the big bang, life should occur, or that after civilisations should be created, and that a species, humans would be formed and eventually evolve to monopolise a planet called earth. Nobody did, but it happened.

As an agnostic at heart. I don't believe in the existence of a personal, all loving god to make all these happen, but sometimes i wonder if there was a greater law of order that made all these possible.

Just a random thought that occured in my head as i took a stroll back home from groceries shopping. What are your responses?

BroInChrist SG

Firstly, I think the title is a bit off since only arguments can be considered fallacious, not things or entities.

Secondly, it would be pretty evident to you that I am a theist. So from a theistic point of view, the universe, its orderliness, its intelligibility, the laws of nature, are all explicable within the theistic worldview.

Thirdly, you said you do not believe in the existence of a personal God but perhaps a greater law can explain the existence of the universe. But surely the existence of life and personhood cannot be caused by mere laws, which themselves beg a cause for their existence.

Oh, I should warn you upfront that this thread will probably be locked soon.

charlize SG

Life is surreal.

BadzMaro SG

Don't worry. You are not alone in looking into the stars pondering about the mysteries of the universe. Why are we here and what is our purpose. Things will make sense when it the time comes. One thing is certain and that is death. Life is short.

So I think just do the right thing, share the love and enjoy life.

OscarLeegacy SG

The definition of fallacious is simply defined as 'something' that is logically unsound. A logic can be fallcious, a plan, view or perspective can also be fallacious. That being said so, thank you for your response to this thread. It doesn't matter if it's locked or not. I just needed a place to pen my thoughts down. I would engage in intellectual conversation with my friends but i'm not socially adaptable, and the few friend's i have are beneath the capablities to engage in any form of conversation greater than the simplistic and superficial matters which we face in our everyday life.

Also, i used the term 'laws' because i could not think of a better word to replace it with. Should i use the phrase, "divine intervention" it would be begging me to concede that a god exists. While i do not explicitly deny the possibility of existence of (a) god(s) [Atheism], i simply do not believe in one, until proof present's itself[Agnotism]

And yes, life can be surreal.

Thank you for your reply, at the very least.

BroInChrist SG

From what I know the only "things" that can be considered fallacious are arguments, or statements that contain an argument or a conclusion. Anyway I won't press this point further as I think I know what you are trying to say.

Once the notion of a personal all powerful God is rejected, the universe becomes "illogical", or "fallacious" as you called it. It doesn't make sense for why the universe should exist, why things are the way they are. SOMETHING must have been the cause(es) of it all, but then again anything less than God would not seem to be an adequate answer either. Some people invoke aliens, but aliens (if they exist at all) are part of this universe and this universe itself begs a cause. So aliens are a no go at all.

Many people require the existence of God to be proven. But have you considered that the cause of the material universe must itself be immaterial? If so, then you can only "prove" the existence of this cause from the effect. Just as a painting requires or presupposes a painter, so the universe requires or presupposes a Creator. The best explanation being that of a Personal God.

OscarLeegacy SG

I disagree with you that a material universe must* originate from an immaterial effect, should evolution( a material entity) also originate from god then? But does that not imply that the creationist worldview is being attacked by that logic?

While i will not point fingers and explicitly state that you're wrong, i'm just stating the possibility that you may* be wrong, like myself. Once it boils down to anything philosophical or non-matter, so as to speak, it is really difficult to draw out lines and depict exactly who is wrong, or right. If you understand my point of view.

Also, i do know that this isn't the appropriate place to spark any form of religious debate. I think i will leave matters as they are.

BroInChrist SG

Since we are talking about the universe as a whole, the cause of the universe must be outside of time, space and matter. As such it must be timeless, not bound by space, and immaterial, aka not made up of matter. Otherwise we end up in an infinite regress which does not answer anything ultimately.

You are very right that the answers to these are ultimately philosophical, if not religious. It boils down to faith, not science. Belief, not empirical data. But it need not be a blind faith, but a reasonable one.

I agree that this is not the best place to discuss this. Please feel free to drop by my forum here http://sgforums.com/forums/4245

Aneslayer SG

Things need not be wrong or logically unsound as they need not be right or logical in the 1st place. The puddle of water just fills the cavity.

BroInChrist SG

Things need not be wrong or logically unsound as they need not be right or logical in the 1st place. The puddle of water just fills the cavity.

I think people like Oscar is just trying to make sense of the world (or the universe) in which we live. Even if water just fills the cavity, one can also ask "why" it does that.

Aneslayer SG

If there was ever a need to ask that, why not. Is it a need to be satisfied? Or the pride that one ought to be knowing why?

Uraniumfish SG

fallacious means with fallacy, but I keep thinking it means 'like a blowjob'.

OscarLeegacy SG

Are you satisfied with not knowing how the universe works? Why not pursue knowledge when it is within grasp, why be content with what you know?

Aneslayer SG

If the knowledge is necessary, one has to know, unless its not accessible. If not, why one shouldn't be content to know only what one want to know?

OscarLeegacy SG

In my opinion, all forms of knowledge is a necessity.

Aneslayer SG

I'd rather be contented as the absolutes objective of knowledge is to utilize it. Never knew anyone's calling to be knowing everything about everything. Oh... updates as well....

M the name SG

The best fallacy in the world I can think of is Naruto The Pang Sai. I didn't understand how an idiot shit of manga can be so popular in the world ? Maybe the world is really crazy !

BroInChrist SG

If there was ever a need to ask that, why not. Is it a need to be satisfied? Or the pride that one ought to be knowing why?

Pick up any book on philosophy and you will see that questions of existence, meaning and purpose are the stuff of philosophy. Are these the vain questions of prideful men throughout the ages or are these really the questions that matter and define who we are and how we should live? Who would not want to know the answers? Only those who think that life is not worth examining. Apathy has never been a good teacher nor a source of knowlwedge and wisdom.

Aneslayer SG

... and someone keeps leaving out the necessary part... for his argument sake.

mancha SG

How many bags did they put all your groceries in?

Did they put the dry stuff in one bag, the freezer stuff in another, and the green stuff in yet another.

Thats logically fallacious.