Discussion on the Resurrection of the Dead

Kuali Baba SG

Please continue the discussion here instead of the thread for the late Archbishop Emeritus Gregory Yong.

Once again, here is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The teaching can be found in Chapter 1, Section 2 (The Creed), Articles 11 and 12.

Kuali Baba SG

It appears that we are all incorrect on both counts. There is both a Particular Judgement and a Final Judgement. Every person undergoes Particular Judgement upon death, and is thereby judged to proceed into Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell, where they will spend their time until the day of the Final Judgement. At the Final Judgement, every person - whether dead or alive - is brought before Jesus Christ to be perfectly judged. While the living are delivered their judgement, the souls of dead shall be reunited with their bodies and continue to be sent to the domain they were previously judged to enter - Heaven or Hell. Those in Purgatory at the time of the Final Judgement are directly released into Heaven.

In particular, the concept of a 'soul slumber' till Final Judgement is a heresy hailing from the domain of the Hypnopsychites. A 'kingdom of death' for the souls would roughly translate to a state of temporary destruction, and that again is a heresy, this time of the Thnetnopsychites. These deny the existence of the Particular Judgement upon death, and are hence contradictory to the Church's theology. For a possible explanation for the 14 hours of 'sleep', one might like to look at the Eastern Orthodox position that Particular Judgement occurs on the fortieth day after death, offering a short term of so-called 'slumber', but not in the indefinite sense that the Hypnopsychites hold to. Alternatively, one might also like to draw parallels with the teaching that the seven days of creation were not literal 24-hour periods, but rather eras. Is it not possible that a few minutes in divinity could well occupy 14 hours on earth?

What about Job what I wrote I have found to be the belief of Jews as well. What about what Martha said to Jesus when Jesus spoke that Lazarus was alive.

Martha replied something like this: I know that the Lord will rise him up as He rise the deads on the last day.

What you wrote in the bold text where in the bible does it say so?

The dead are not in divinity. The deads are not aware of time. Jesus mentioned the kingdom of death many many times. So you were saying the dead slept in divinity. If she were in heaven why did she said she was sleeping? So in heaven we all would be sleeping. That's illogical and nonsense.

Soul slumber is not a heresy. It's biblical and it's Jewish. What you wrote is heresy if not based on the bible. So pls point where in the bible you wrote what you wrote. I will poin again where in the bible I wrote what I wrote.

I'll start with this one verse:

Revelation 20:4-6 The thousand years

I saw thrones, and sitting on those thrones were the ones who had been given the right to judge. I also saw the souls of the people who had their heads cut off because they had told about Jesus and preached God's message. They were the sameones who hadn't worshipped the beast or the idol, and they had refused to let its mark be put on their hands or foreheads. They will come to life and rule with Christ for 1000 years.

These people are the first to be raised to life, and they are especially blessed and holy. The second death has no power over them. They will be priests for God and Christ and will rule with them for 1000 years.

No other dead people were raised to life until 1000 years later.

^ The last few posts of the discussion

M&P, you'll find that Ariedartin was paraphrasing the teachings of the Church.

Sola Scriptura is not one of our principles. Your beliefs leave no room for the teachings about Purgatory.

Miracles&Prophecies SG

Thanks for the link Kuali Baba

I'd like to quote from this

-Catechism of the Catholic Church-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

655 Finally, Christ's Resurrection - and the risen Christ himself is the principle and source of our future resurrection: "Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. . . For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."⁵²⁸ The risen Christ lives in the hearts of his faithful while they await that fulfilment. In Christ, Christians "have tasted. . . the powers of the age to come"⁵²⁹ and their lives are swept up by Christ into the heart of divine life, so that they may "live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised."⁵³⁰

IN BRIEF

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Now it is clear that the dead is in a state likened to sleeping but the question is when will the Christian be risen? After 3 days? Or on the last day or end of time?

According to Mark, Matthew, Luke and John Jesus promised His believers that He would rise them up on the last day. So it takes the Lord for us to be risen from our death. And Jesus our Lord will raise us up on the last day.

John 6:22-59 The bread that gives life

Verse 38

I didn't come from heaven to do what I want! I came to do what the Father wants me to do. He sent me, and he wants to make certain that none of the ones he has given me will be lost. Instead, he wants me to raise them to life on the last day.

Verse 43

Jesus told them,

Stop grumbling! No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day.

Verse 53

Jesus answered:

I tell you for certain that you won't live unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man. But if you do eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will have eternal life, and I will raise you to life on the last day.

John 11:1-43, Jesus brings Lazarus to life. I begin at verse 11-14

[read the bible to get the full story]

The he[Jesus] told them, “Our friend Lazarus is asleep, and I’m going there to wake him up.”

They replied, “Lord, if he’s asleep, he’ll get better.” Jesus really meant that Lazarus was dead, but they thought he was talking only about sleep.

Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead! I’m glad that I wasn’t there, because now you’ll have a chance to put your faith in me. Let’s go to him.

Verse 23

Jesus told her, “Your brother will live again!”

Martha answered, “I know that he’ll be raised to life on the last day, when all the dead are raised.”

Jesus then said, “I am the one who raises the dead to life! Everyone who has faith in me will live, even if they die. And everyone who has lives because of faith in me will never really die. Do you believe this?”

Kuali Baba SG

Taken in context with the teachings, that means our mortal bodies rest until the Final Judgment. Our souls still enter eternal damnation, purification or heaven immediately after death. I don't know whether you're contesting the latter or whether we'll be aware of that torment or bliss our souls will undergo.

Ariedartin SG

I'm going to use the same quote you took from the Book of John:

The he[Jesus] told them, “Our friend Lazarus is asleep, and I’m going there to wake him up.”

They replied, “Lord, if he’s asleep, he’ll get better.” Jesus really meant that Lazarus was dead, but they thought he was talking only about sleep.

Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead! I’m glad that I wasn’t there, because now you’ll have a chance to put your faith in me. Let’s go to him.

Surely, now, we can clearly see that even Jesus uses sleep as a metaphor to allude to true death. Keep this fact of scripture in mind, and the we will find that all is consistent with the teachings of the Church, inspired by both scripture and tradition. Indeed, we are all definitely dead even after our Particular Judgement - our souls are merely sent to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory where we will spend the rest of our time till Final Judgement. All this while, we are considered dead, no more. Yet, come Final Judgement, we will be reunited with our physical vessels so as to be truly alive once more. At this point, then we are brought to life in fulfilment of the scriptures. To this end, we now all die in the hope of rising again. If that may ring familiar, it is because that is what we say in the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Of course, as of now, we might have a concern on the issue of cremated bodies being incapable of being brought back - I'll probably have to read up more about that. Nonetheless, keep in mind that conventionally buried bodies - save those of the holiest saints - are whithered and hence to a degree damaged, and yet are within the power of God to be restored. It would then follow that cremated and completely destroyed bodies are merely more greatly damaged.

Miracles&Prophecies SG

No this is where you got it wrong. Our soul would descend to the world of the dead or what Jesus referred to as the kingdom of death. Here our soul that is us will be in a state likened to sleeping. The dead has no awareness of themselves, of God and of time. Really there is no life in death. The kingdom of death is a very very quiet and dark place. No life!

Before the soul enters either eternal damnation(the second death), purgatory or heaven the sould needs to be raised up from death first. It's ridiculous to think that we could still be living without the need of our Lord to raise up us. This is actually can be called heresy . That one believes that one soul would remain active after death is actually heretical. The believers of Christ await in the hope of the Lord our savior to raise him or her from his or her death.

Miracles&Prophecies SG

I'm going to use the same quote you took from the Book of John:

The he[Jesus] told them, “Our friend Lazarus is asleep, and I’m going there to wake him up.”

They replied, “Lord, if he’s asleep, he’ll get better.” Jesus really meant that Lazarus was dead, but they thought he was talking only about sleep.

Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead! I’m glad that I wasn’t there, because now you’ll have a chance to put your faith in me. Let’s go to him.

......................

No Jesus said that the dead Lazarus was asleep to make known that to God Lazarus' soul didn't perish(or any soul belonging to any dead). He is now in a state likened to sleeping. Like I said the dead would not be aware of themselves, of God, of time or of anything. It's quite like being sleeping but there is one big difference that in sleep there is always perpetual life.

Death is no life! To think that we can still be active in the next life immediately after our death is not only not biblical but also heretical in that we belittle the role that Jesus our Savior were meant to play. That Jesus would raise his believers on the last day. Before being risen by the Lord there is no life at all.

So death is above all not a transformation to another life. In order to be still living and active after death a soul needs to be raised by God. Only God has the power to raise the dead to life.

Miracles&Prophecies SG

To understand death we must realize that death is a punishment because Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge. So Adam and Eve would stopped living after awhile. That is death

Because men now know the difference between good and evil men are liable to be judged. The fruit of sins is death. we died because of our sins but the Lord our Christ promised that if we believe in Him He would raise us on the last day and that we would never really die.

These words are said in the liturgy: "Remember those who died with the hope of being raised...."

Why do we say it? Because the dead would no longer be able to pray to God to remember them. We said that prayer in place the now asleep dead.

To think that it is our body who is sleeping while our mind(soul) would still be living is incorrect. When Jesus said that Lazarus and the daughter of Jairus were sleeping he meant that their soul were in a state likened to sleeping i.e, they had descended to the kingdom of death.

Kuali Baba SG

Then you are contradicting the CCC, which says explicitly:

I. The Particular Judgment

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -or immediate and everlasting damnation.

Kuali Baba SG

Here is the explanation of 'He descended into Hell; on the third day He rose again' in Chapter 5:

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Saviour, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead." The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage." Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. the earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."

Kuali Baba SG

And the part just before that you quoted:

654 The Paschal mystery has two aspects: by his death, Christ liberates us from sin; by his Resurrection, he opens for us the way to a new life. This new life is above all justification that reinstates us in God's grace, "so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." Justification consists in both victory over the death caused by sin and a new participation in grace.

By His death and resurrection, when we are baptised, we are saved from being unable to see God in death as long as we follow Him. That was explained above in paragraph 633.

Kuali Baba SG

And this from Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 4 explains why we pray for the deceased:

1681 The Christian meaning of death is revealed in the light of the Paschal mystery of the death and resurrection of Christ in whom resides our only hope. the Christian who dies in Christ Jesus is "away from the body and at home with the Lord."

1682 For the Christian the day of death inaugurates, at the end of his sacramental life, the fulfillment of his new birth begun at Baptism, the definitive "conformity" to "the image of the Son" conferred by the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and participation in the feast of the Kingdom which was anticipated in the Eucharist - even if final purifications are still necessary for him in order to be clothed with the nuptial garment...

1684 The Christian funeral confers on the deceased neither a sacrament nor a sacramental since he has "passed" beyond the sacramental economy. It is nonetheless a liturgical celebration of the Church. The ministry of the Church aims at expressing efficacious communion with the deceased, at the participation in that communion of the community gathered for the funeral and at the proclamation of eternal life to the community...

1689 The Eucharistic Sacrifice. When the celebration takes place in church the Eucharist is the heart of the Paschal reality of Christian death. In the Eucharist, the Church expresses her efficacious communion with the departed: offering to the Father in the Holy Spirit the sacrifice of the death and resurrection of Christ, she asks to purify his child of his sins and their consequences, and to admit him to the Paschal fullness of the table of the Kingdom. It is by the Eucharist thus celebrated that the community of the faithful, especially the family of the deceased, learn to live in communion with the one who "has fallen asleep in the Lord," by communicating in the Body of Christ of which he is a living member and, then, by praying for him and with him.

When we die, our mortal bodies are asleep in the Lord. We do not rest in Hades, unable to see God, unless we have turned away from Him. If we live in Him, we will also die in Him and we will not be subjected to the punishment that results from Original Sin.

Miracles&Prophecies SG

Let's look at Job. Job knows what awaits him after death. That he would descend to the kingdom of death until 'the sky disappears' that is until the last day when the Lord promised to raised the believers from their death.

What Job and Martha believes represent what the Jews believe. Jesus and his disciples were all jewish.

Job 14: 10-12

Humans are different- we die, and that’s the end.

We are like streams and lakes after the water has gone;

We fall into the sleep of death, never to rise again until the sky disappears.

Job 17: 13:-16

I could tell the world below to prepare me a bed.

Then I could greet the grave as my father and say to the worms, “Hello, mother and sisters!”

But what kind of hope is that?

Will it keep me company in the world of the dead?

In the following verse Job realizes that the Messiah lives and is coming. That he would be raised from his sleep of death at the end and though his current body would be destroyed, from his new body he would see God.

Job 19: 25:-27

I know that my Savior lives,

And at the end he will stand on this earth.

My flesh may be destroyed,

Yet from this body I will see God.

Yes, I will see him myself, and I long for that moment

Miracles&Prophecies SG

And the part just before that you quoted:

By His death and resurrection, when we are baptised, we are saved from being unable to see God in death as long as we follow Him. That was explained above in paragraph 633.

Yes but it didn't specify when. Jesus promised us to raise us on the last day. Believers in Christ would get victory over death on the last day.

Miracles&Prophecies SG

Then you are contradicting the CCC, which says explicitly:

Then the CCC contradicts the bible.

I choose the bible over CCC.

Miracles&Prophecies SG

Hmm this might have changed my mind.

But the nonbelievers would still be imprisoned in death yes?

Actually the kingdom of death is not hell. And the kingdom of death like hell is God's realm too, only the people who are not raised were not raised because they lived their life under the influence or power of the devil. The devil is a very poor being indeed he got no realm to rule. Only influence.

If anyone can explain the meaning that Jesus promised us to raise us on the last day. I would happily accept the understanding that all believers in Christ are raised immediately after death.

And if you could pls explain what I quote from the revelation. It's the third quote on the first post.

Job said that he would await in the sleep of death until the sky disappears that is until the last day. It's not my or your last day it's the last day.

What would happen to nonbelievers or those who Christ didn't raise? They would not be condemend to hell...will those be ever get freed from imprisonment in death?

You have no idea how much I want to believe this theory for I know the sleep of death and the kingdom of death and I really really want God that is Christ to save me from my sleep of death.

So if believers are raised immediately(which is good news indeed very very good news) then some people would also be immediately raised to be condemned to hell? Because if some are raised to receive eternal blessing, some other would be raised to be condemned to hell. While other or the rest would still be imprisoned in death?

And where is the basis in the bible for the CCC that stated men would be raised immediately after our death?

How about the testimony of a resurrected dead sister who said she had been sleeping while she was dead?

We need a knowledgeable priest to join in the discussion. Somebody get your parish priest to participate in this discussion will you?

I really want to believe that Jesus won't allow us to wait for him in our sleep of death. That Jesus would raise us immediately after our death. But I need the basis for that from the bible. So pls point me where in the bible that can support this theory?

Miracles&Prophecies SG

Here is the explanation of 'He descended into Hell; on the third day He rose again' in Chapter 5:

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

I strongly believe that the lot of those who await in the kingdom of death is the same(identical). That's why it's called the sleep of death. It's the same even for Lazarus who was Jesus' friend. Or for Job who was a righteous person.

So there might be a mistake here?

And I firmly believe that even now at least some number of dead people(if not all) are still in their sleep of death.

Anyone can explain this to support immediate resurrection after death? Some people would be imprisoned in death for indefinite time? That their punishment is not hell but death itself?

Let's remember our common ground: That Jesus is our Messiah, Christ our savior from the power of death. That Christ would raise us His believers from the power of death.

Now the question is when. Is it immediate or is it at the end of time/ the last day. From what I know the dead don't have any awareness of anything and that includes time so the last day would not be felt as being very long but still I wish that none of us would taste the sleep of death. At all.

Kuali Baba SG

I removed the annotations to make for easier reading, but the basis in the Bible was also stated in CCC. The parable of about Lazarus and the rich man was one (and it was left in the quote above); here are the rest:

⇒ Lk 16:22; ⇒ 23:43; ⇒ Mt 16:26; ⇒ 2 Cor 5:8; ⇒ Phil 1:23; ⇒ Heb 9:27; ⇒ 12:23

For the soul, retribution or reward is immediate as it lives on; resurrection of the body takes place on the last day.

Miracles&Prophecies SG

Luke 16:22 Immediate resurrection is implied in the story

Luke 23:43. This is one of the weirdest thing in the bible. Matthew, Mark and John wrote that the two criminals both insulted Jesus and none of them believed in Him. So this is where the bible contradicts itself. I would rather believe in 3 writers than in one. Besides we know for sure that Jesus descended to the kingdom of death for three days how could the criminal be with Jesus in heaven on the day Jesus and he died.

Mt 16:26 What will you gain, if you own the whole world but destroy yourself? What would you give to get back your soul?

This is irrelevant to the topic we are discussing. If not pls point out where. The sleeping dead still has their soul but they are not alive.

2 Cor 5:8 We should be cheerful, because we would rather leave these bodies and be at home with the Lord.

When? Immediately wasn't told but nevertheless could be implied. To be with the Lord one need s to be raised from death first that is one needs to be dead first or to leave these bodies(descended to the world of death)

Phil 1:23 It is a hard choice to make. I want to die and be with Christ, because that would be much better.

Immediate resurrection is clearly implied

Heb 9:27-28 we die only once, then we are judged. So Christ died only once to take away the sins of many people. But when he comes again, it will not be to take away sin. He will come to save everyone who is waiting for him.

This verse tells that When Christ comes the 2nd time(and he hasn't come) he would save those who are waiting for him. Those who have died and now waiting for him
in the kingdom of death. Yes of course we die only once then we are judged but it didn't specify whether we are going to be judged immediately after death or at the last day.

Heb 12:23. It says about the heaven not on when God would resurrect his people.

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Let me add this important verse

Hebrews 12:14 Try to live at peace with everyone! Live a clean life. If you don't, you will never see the Lord.

So it is telling us that some people would never be resurrected from death. That is to be in the state of death for eternity. That it is the same with perishing. So the Hades is not an empty place afterall. And not all the people would be raised from the Hades to see(to live with) the Lord.

So even if resurrection after death is immediate it is stictly for those people that are saved by the Lord.

Death is not a transition to another life without God intervention.

Not only the ungodly people or those whose faith are fake would never see the Lord they would be the permanent resident of the kingdom of death. They would see nothing. They would become nothing. That is the power of death. Their souls don't live on as ghost in this world or the next. The vain of cosmetics faith.

Miracles&Prophecies SG

I would like to point out this growing belief in me that unless God's spirit is in us we would never be raised from among the dead.

That is only a spirit filled Christian would be saved.

There are verses to support this but I choose not to talk about them right now.