Mary Wasn't Sinless

last SG · 2005-04-20T00:12:00+00:00

this seems a little late .. but i personally know heaps of people that got to know Christ through Mary. just like how we r vessels that God uses to evangeli...

plo30360 SG

Originally posted by Weirdo80:
[b]Even 7 of your "popes" rejected her sinlessness.

She was good and faithful, but she was HUMAN. Only God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit were SINLESS. The rest, including all your "saints" are HUMAN.

Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

If Mary were sinless, would it not have been mentioned in the Gospel?

Catholics never claimed that saints are sinless. The reason they are saints are the examplary Christian lives they have led and how they overcame thier personal sins.

Now about Mary:
1.Yes she is human and a creature of God. But certainly not ordinary.
It would be like saying the president of US is just another man.
2. She could not have orignal sin, because she was the vessel for the Word made Man.

As established in the other thread, Apocryphal Texts are not part of Scripture. They hold no weight and therefore should not be quoted.

They part of the Scriputre. They hold weight and you've not suffcienlty establised that they are moot in the other thread.

Honeybunz SG

Bible didn't say they are Mary's sons.

Deportivo SG

Bible also didn't say that Mary is sinless.

Honeybunz SG

But it didn't say she's sinful either Laughing

FrustMom SG

Mary, the mother of Jesus
In Christianity and Islam, Mary (Judæo-Aramaic מרים Maryām "Bitter"; Septuagint Greek Μαριαμ, Mariam, Μαρια, Maria; Arabic: Maryem, مري&#1605 Wink is the mother of Jesus and the betrothed of Joseph. The Christian theology concerning her is Mariology.

Historicity
Most, though not all, historians accept that Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure, even if they accept nothing or almost nothing of the account of his life in the Christian Gospels. Mary (Miriam in Hebrew, Mariam in Greek) is mentioned by name in three of the four Gospels, and the Book of Acts, although not by name in the Gospel of John. Therefore his mother holds some interest as a historical figure, and there seems to be no reason not to accept the Christian tradition that her name was Miriam.

It is generally agreed that she was a young woman when she first became a mother. Some insight into traditions concerning her later life, e.g., that she died between three and 15 years after the crucifixion of Jesus, can be found in the Apocrypha. Assuming that Jesus died in his 30s, there is also little reason to doubt that his mother could be still alive at the time of his death, or that she could have witnessed it. Beyond the accounts given in the Gospels and a few other early Christian sources, however, there is no independent or verifiable information about any aspect of Mary's life. An account of the childhood of Mary is given in the mid-2nd century Gospel of James.The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions built around the figure of Mary, and the centuries of Marian cult derived from the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian churches, are based on faith, traditions of the Church Fathers, and their interpretations of the Scriptures¹.

FrustMom SG

Christian records

Gabriel delivering the Annunciation to Mary. Painting by El Greco (1575)Little is known of her personal history from the New Testament. A genealogy for Mary is given in Luke 3. According to Luke, she was of the tribe of Judah and the lineage of David (Ps. 132:11; Luke 1:32). She was cousin by marriage to Elisabeth, who was of the lineage of Aaron (Luke 1:36). She resided at Nazareth with her parents, while betrothed to Joseph. During her betrothal, the angel Gabriel announced to her that she was to be the mother of the promised Messiah while remaining yet a virgin (the Annunciation, Luke 1:35). After this she went to visit her cousin Elisabeth, who was living with her husband Zacharias (probably at Juttah, Josh. 15:55; 21:16, in the neighbourhood of Maon), at a considerable distance, about 160 Km, from Nazareth. Immediately on entering the house she was saluted by Elisabeth as the mother of her Lord, and then forthwith gave utterance to her hymn of thanksgiving (Luke 1:46-56; comp. 1 Sam. 2:1-10) commonly known as the Magnificat. After three months Mary returned to her own home in Nazareth. Joseph was told in a dream (Matt. 1:18-25) of her condition, and took her to his own home. Soon after this the decree of Augustus (Luke 2:1) required that they should proceed to Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), some 80 or 90 miles (about 130 kilometers) from Nazareth; and while there they found shelter in the inn provided for strangers (Luke 2:6, 7). But as the inn was crowded, Mary had to retire to a place among the cattle.

There she brought forth her son, who was called Jesus (Matt. 1:21), because he was to save his people from their sins. This was followed by the presentation in the temple, the flight into Egypt, and their return in the following year and residence at Nazareth (Matt. 2). Mary apparently remained in Nazareth for thirty uneventful years. During these years only one event in the history of Jesus is recorded: his going up to Jerusalem when twelve years of age, where he was found among the doctors in the temple (Luke 2:41-52). Probably also during this period Joseph died, for he is not mentioned again.

Mary was also present at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry when, at the marriage in Cana; her intercession led to the first public miracle performed by Jesus (John 2:1-11). After this point, there is little mention of Mary in the Gospels until we find her at the cross along with her sister Mary, and Mary Magdalene, Salome and other women (John 19:26). Mary cradling the dead body of her son is a common motif in art, called a pietà.

Of the roughly 100 people in the Upper Room after the Ascension on the day of Pentecost, she is one of the handful who are named (Acts 1:14). From this time she wholly disappears from the historical biblical accounts, although it is held by many Christians that she is again portrayed as the heavenly Woman of Revelation (Revelation 12.1).

Her death is not recorded in Scripture.

FrustMom SG

Roman and Eastern Orthodox traditions
Christian theologies hold that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth; denial of this is considered heretical by Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (and Evangelicals) alike. She is often called the Blessed Virgin Mary or Our Lady (this latter, in French, Spanish, and Italian, is rendered Notre Dame, Nuestra Señora, and Madonna respectively). Among Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox she is called Theotokos (Greek for God-bearer) and St. Mary. Catholics also refer to her as Mother of the Church, Queen of All Saints, Mother of God, Queen of Angels, and Queen of Heaven; other Catholic names for Mary can be found in the Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

According to the Gospel of James, which, though not part of the New Testament, contains biographical material about Mary considered plausible by some Orthodox and Catholic Christians, she was the daughter of Joachim and Anna. Before Mary's conception, Anna had been barren, and her parents were quite old when she was conceived. They took her to live in the Temple in Jerusalem when she was three years old, much like Hanna took Samuel to the Tabernacle as recorded in the Old Testament (Tanakh, Hebrew Bible).

The Annunciation by Fra AngelicoAccording to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox tradition, between three and fifteen years after Christ's Ascension, in either Jerusalem or Ephesus, she died while surrounded by the apostles. Later when the apostles opened her tomb, they found it empty and concluded that she had been bodily assumed into Heaven. ("Mary's Tomb" - a tomb in Jerusalem is attributed to Mary, but it was unknown until the 6th century.)

Islamic tradition
Islamic theology also posits that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth. The Quran tells the story of Maryam (Mary) in two places, 3:35-47 and 19:16-34, but goes into much less detail than the Bible. It says that Maryam (Mary) was dedicated to God's service by her mother while still in the womb (Quran 3:35), that she was cared for by Zakariya (Zecharias) (3:36), and that in her childhood God provided for her to help her grow strong and pious (3:37). He then sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, specifying that "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee - chosen thee above the women of all nations." (Qur'an 3:42). It specifies that she conceived Jesus despite being a virgin: "She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!" (3:47).

FrustMom SG

too be continued!

NeonTetra SG

The virgin birth is true. but not the immaculate conception and perpetual virginity.

whether or not she is virgin is not impt. whether or not Jesus was born of a virgin is crucial. where or not Jesus is sinless is doctrinally and theologically important, but mary being sinless is of no origin in the scriptures, simply from the mouth of people.

NeonTetra SG

double post

FrustMom SG

Beliefs

Immaculate Conception of Mary
The Immaculate Conception is the doctrine that states that Mary was filled with grace from the very moment of her conception in her mother's womb. While it might be permitted for Orthodox Christians to believe the doctrine, only the Roman Catholic Church has officially adopted this teaching, and the title "Immaculate Conception" is one used only by Catholics. Most Protestants reject the idea that Mary was saved by God from her very first moment.

While it is technically true to say that Orthodox believe Mary was conceived immaculately, Orthodox do not believe in the same idea of original sin as the West, and they believe all babies are born immaculate. Sin is not considered ontological in Orthodoxy, only the tendency toward it. (This tendency is referenced by the phrase, "ancestral curse," which sometimes leads to confusion on the Orthodox view of the fall.) Mary is considered sinless in the Orthodox Church because it is believed that the grace of God allowed her not to sin, thereby remaining immaculate. So in the Orthodox view, it seems Mary was conceived immaculately but her conception was not out of the ordinary in any way.

Veneration of Mary

Image from 17th century Peruvian cultRoman Catholic, Orthodox and many Anglican Christians venerate Mary, as do the non-Chalcedonian or monophysite Orthodox (such as the Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt and the Ethiopian Tewahedo Church). This veneration especially takes the form of prayer for intercession with her Son, Jesus Christ. Additionally it includes composing poems and songs in Mary's honor, painting icons or carving statues representing her, bowing or kneeling before such images as a token of respect to the one portrayed by them, and conferring titles on Mary that reflect her exalted position among the saints. She is also one of the most highly venerated saints in both the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Church; several major feast days are devoted to her each year. (See Liturgical year.) Protestants have generally been less enthusiastic about the veneration of the Virgin than their Catholic and Orthodox cousins, often arguing that if too much attention is focused on Mary, there is a danger of detracting from the worship due to God alone.

The major origin and impetus of veneration of Mary comes from the Christological controversies of the early church - many debates denying in some way the divinity or humanity of Jesus Christ. So not only would one side affirm that Jesus was indeed God, but would assert the conclusion that Mary was the mother of God.

Both Roman Catholics and Orthodox make a clear distinction between such veneration (which is also due to the other saints) and worship which is due to God alone. Mary, they point out, is not in herself divine, and has only such powers to help as are granted to her by God in response to her prayers. Such miracles as may occur through Mary's intercession are ultimately the result of God's love and omnipotence. The term worship is used by some theologians to subsume both categories: sacrificial worship and worship of praise: Orestes Brownson in his book Saint Worship is a good example of that usage. Roman Catholicism distinguishes three forms of honor: "latria", due only to God, and usually translated by the English word adoration; "hyperdulia", accorded only to the Blessed Virgin Mary, usually translated simply as veneration; and "dulia", accorded to the rest of the saints, also usually translated as veneration. The Orthodox distinguish between worship and veneration but do not accept a sort of "hyper"-veneration only for the Theotokos.

FrustMom SG

Some early Protestants venerated and honored Mary. Martin Luther said Mary is "the highest woman", that "we can never honour her enough", that "the veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart", and that we should "wish that everyone know and respect her".[/b] [b]John Calvin said, "It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." Zwingli said, "I esteem immensely the Mother of God," and, "The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow." Others rejected the distinction between veneration and worship, and considered all these practices to be idolatry or unlawful worship. With the exception of the Anglican Communion, modern Protestantism has generally followed those reformers who rejected the veneration of Mary and other saints.

Today's Protestant Church is a broken root from the Original Church (The Roman Catholic Church) as well as their very own Protestant predecessors. This is a very dangerous sign because they are gradually forgetting what the Early Protestants teach. They may not even have the full correct interpretation of the bible.

This problem reaffirms the importance of traditions and having a church head.

FrustMom SG

Perpetual virginity

That Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus is a doctrinal stance of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Of the early fathers of the Church, only Tertullian seems to have questioned the teaching. Muslims also hold it to be true. The most prominent leaders of the Reformation, Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin also defended the perpetual virginity of Mary against those who questioned it. Popular belief among the faithful has diminished in the 20th century, together with active faith and participation in organized religion. Protestant churches, as well, have set aside the traditional teaching, citing references to "brothers" of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Defenders of the teaching, including John Calvin, have pointed out that Aramaic, the language spoken by Christ and his disciples, lacked a specific word for "cousin," so that the word "brother" was used instead. In addition, nothing in Greek or Aramaic disqualifies a half-brother (same father, different mother) from being called a "brother".

Note here that it is the Protestants who defended Mother Mary's virginity. So why are there Protestants who choose to question it? Is this a sign of disunity?

NeonTetra SG

Despite the endorsement from many so-called early church fathers and so on....be it the roman or eastern church. The fact that the Bible never records any of these shows that these issues are not crucial and doctrinally important.

I am fine with the idea that Mary being a virgin until death...but that should not make me spending my time saying that she is a virgin while the virgin birth of the Messiah makes more difference. If Jesus is not born of a virgin, then the Old testament prophecies did not come true and therefore the Bible in its area od prophecy and reputation of being God inspired is all nonsense.

Mary's perpetual virginity and immaculate conception are not mentioned in the Bible, both Old and New Testament. If these two information are doctrinally important, crucial for without which no men can be redeemed...then why Jesus during His ministry on earth never preach that and entrust such so-called important doctrines to His disciples and command them to teach?

There are many other marian dogmas that are no found in Scriptures, but rather from hints ...not even clear ones from the Apocryphal books and some declared 'ex-cathedra' by the Roman Pontiffs. Others were taken from 'Traditions' and 'Early practices' which can be easily influenced by man's perverted ideas about God and His things. Not sanctioned by God's word and when come to think of it....so wat if Mary is a virgin, so what if she is conceived without sin, so what she is assumed into heaven, so what she is crowned as Queen of heaven?

Christianity is about Christ and Christ alone. The Savior is Christ and Him alone is sufficient. No need for Co-redeemer, no need for Co-mediatrix.
And such Marian veneration as the RC calls it....not only distract them from the true Person who brings salvation but also blasphemed against God as adding on, creating titles and artificial glories for things that God never said so.

Yes...Mary is indeed blessed amongs women. Mary indeed conceived Jesus by the power of the Spirit of God and indeed all generations will call her blessed to be the mother of the Lord. And indeed to all who served God, God will crown them as stated in the New Testament books. But to exalt her as Queen of heaven, sayinh she has the power to give grace to all who devote to her by wearing some medals and scapulars, saying prayers dedicated to her in the case of rosaries...think about it......you have crossed the line.

True Protestants do not hate Mary of the Bible. We honour her and remember her role in the birth of our Lord. We modelled after her humble acceptance of God's plan of salvation. We respect her like any other heroes and heroines of the Bible. But the Mary of the Roman Church is deviated from the humble, jewish maiden recorded for us in the gospels. A 'Mary' that appears here and there....revealing mysteries and very often after every apparitions new dogmas and new teachings are given. new devotions..very often directed towards herself and at times adding on to what the Bible says.... Immaculate Conception is one classical example. Declared by Pope Pius IX on 8 Dec 1854,
that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin" was related to the subsequent appearance of 'Mary' at Lourdes.

Other Marian apparitions also brought with it new devotions, new medals and scapulars to be worn and grace and salvation from hell's fires promises were attached to each devotions....

where is Christ's place ? Does Christ really save.....or the so-called Mary took over the job?

plo30360 SG

The Bible actually does and the tracts have been quoted before, its just that non-Catholic Christians convineintly ignore these.

There are many other marian dogmas that are no found in Scriptures, but rather from hints

Technically speaking there are no "Marian dogmas".

Christianity is about Christ and Christ alone. The Savior is Christ and Him alone is sufficient. No need for Co-redeemer, no need for Co-mediatrix.
And such Marian veneration as the RC calls it

Agreed its is about Christ alone. Catholics never say Mary is Co-reedmer. As for Mary's veneration, its about intercession and intercession is not the same as praying to her.And yes veneration of holy men is mentioned in the Bible(something ignored again)

A 'Mary' that appears here and there....revealing mysteries and very often after every apparitions new dogmas and new teachings are given. new devotions..very often directed towards herself and at times adding on to what the Bible says.... Immaculate Conception is one classical example.

The legitimate apparations never added anything to dogma.

Declared by

Pope Pius IX on 8 Dec 1854,
that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin" was related to the subsequent appearance of 'Mary' at Lourdes.

Actually by declaring this the pope did not state something new, he merely stated what the Church had believed all along. A lot of people think that this pope invented this doctrine when in reality it was always the Church's teachings based upon the Bible.

NeonTetra SG

1. You are either not a true blue Catholic

2. Or a Catholic but having a distorted idea about the RC teaching

3. Or you dunno wat u saying.

4. I encourage you to do some reading up on some reputable Pro-Catholic websites to get a better idea about these things.

5. After that I suggest you to read the Bible (66 books version) and compared.

plo30360 SG

Originally posted by NeonTetra:

1. You are either not a true blue Catholic

Typical of non-Catholic Christians even though you may be formerly Catholic.

2. Or a Catholic but having a distorted idea about the RC teaching

I'm under no distorted idea, I've read material posted by both sides.

3. Or you dunno wat u saying.

Perhaps you don't know what you are saying

4. I encourage you to do some reading up on some reputable Pro-Catholic websites to get a better idea about these things.

I've done so and that is how I came to my conclusion, perhaps the material you have been reading has given you distored ideas

5. After that I suggest you to read the Bible (66 books version) and compared.

I suggest you do likewise and compare it with the Catholic Bible to get a netural view.

See Neon one thing I don't undersatnd is this:

Non-Catholic Christians think that due to love(or because their gospel is absolutely right) they have to point out the error of our(Catholic ways).

The best way to show that yours is the "true Christian faith" (evenglise/witness/whatever) is to live out your faith so that you become a living witness.

We can argue back and forth with material from countless sources, but a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

If yours is the true faith, then like our Lord said, it will multiply and bear good fruit when you live it out, people will come to you and ask, then you can preach to them about the faith. And also remember before you point out the faults of others make sure you are free from all defects.

SingaporeMacross SG

Of course Christ saves. Mary cannot take the place of Christ. Why is Mary here? To lead us to Christ. Or at least make it easier.

NeonTetra SG

how to make easier when the way to God has already been opened?

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

i supposed there is no other verse that says:
Mary answered, "I am the side-way and the side- truth and the side-life. No one comes to the Son except through me.

SingaporeMacross SG

rofl lmao.. I really don't know what to say..

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