Are these two volitions the same?

libido SG

1) The volition in dependent origination

And

2) the volition in the five aggregates?

An Eternal Now SG

They are the same

An Eternal Now SG

[1] [At Saavatthii the Blessed One said:] "Monks, what a man wills, what he plans, what he dwells on forms the basis for the continuation of consciousness.[2] This basis being present, consciousness has a lodgment. Consciousness being lodged there and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and from this renewed existence arise birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamentation, suffering, sorrow and despair. Such is the uprising of this entire mass of suffering.

"Even if a man does not will and plan, yet if he dwells on something this forms a basis for the continuation of consciousness:... rebirth... takes place...

"But if a man neither wills nor plans nor dwells on anything, no basis is formed for the continuation of consciousness. This basis being absent, consciousness has no lodgment. Consciousness not being lodged there and not growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and so birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamentation, suffering, sorrow and despair are destroyed. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering."

libido SG

Thanks aen.

In dependent originations, .....ignorance conditioned volition (mental fabrication), this volition.

Is it same as the volition that is in the five aggregates?

Aik TC SG

There is always volition behind what we do. That mental effort is called kamma. When we will, we act through our body, speech, and mind. This is called ‘new kamma’.

The five aggregates are the results of ‘old kamma’ due to pass volitions.

The volition link in the dependent origination doctrine is used in a general term to explain how literal rebirth takes place beside other interpretation.

SN 35.145 Kamma.m Sutta: Kamma

"Monks, I will teach you about new kamma and old kamma, about the ceasing of kamma and the path that leads to the ceasing of kamma. Listen well, pay close attention and I will speak.

"What, monks, is old kamma?

"The eye [ear, nose tongue, body (touch), mind], monks, is to be regarded as old kamma, brought into existence and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling. This, monks, is called 'old kamma.'

"And what, monks, is new kamma?

"The action one performs now by body, speech and mind. This monks, is called 'new kamma.'

"When, monks, by ceasing actions of body, speech and mind, one touches liberation, this, monks, is called 'the ceasing of kamma.'

"And what, monks, is the path that leads to the ceasing of kamma?

"It is the Noble Eightfold Path, namely Right View, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration. This, monks, is called 'the path that leads to the ceasing of kamma.'

libido SG

Thank you for the explanation and reference.

libido SG

One more question. I dun understand how does one cling to volition I.e. one of the five aggregates, any example?

An Eternal Now SG

Thanks aen.

In dependent originations, .....ignorance conditioned volition (mental fabrication), this volition.

Is it same as the volition that is in the five aggregates?

Yes volition in the five aggregates and twelve links is also sankhara.

An Eternal Now SG

If you think your volition is able to control things (via strong will), that is an example of attachment. Volition can also be attached to as "I, me, mine" which is a delusion.

I wrote before:

Yes but not to be mistaken that will has no part in all these. The teaching of anatta or no self does not deny will or the aggregates... The buddha teaches that a sentient being is simply a convention for five aggregates: matter/body, feelings, perception, volition, consciousness. Notice that volition is part of it. This will/volition can be directed towards a wholesome or unwholesome path. However, also remember that the five aggregates are empty of self - and are without agent. Does that mean there is no free will? In a sense yes, but neither does it imply determinism: another dualistic extreme. Free will means subjective controller determines action, determinism means objective world determines subjective experience. In reality there is no subject and object - in thinking just thought, in hearing just sound. But there are requisite conditions for every manifestation. Those conditions can be changed if there is a correct path.

A concrete example: if you ask a beginner to run 2.4km in 9 minutes with an unfit body, that is asking for the impossible. No matter how hard willed is he, he is never going to make it. Why? The current requisite conditions of his body is such that the result of running 9 minutes is impossible. Control, agency, doesn't apply when manifestation always arise due to conditions.

It however also means that if you exercise regularly for months or years, there is no reason the body (conditions) cannot be improved to the degree that running 9 mins is definitely possible. This is what I mean by working with conditions.

So those teachers who say meditation are useless are not understanding latent tendencies and conditions. They mistook no doership with some kind of fatalism. Every proper practice has its place in working with one's conditions.

Just because there is no self, no doer, doesn't mean my body is fated to be unfit and I can't reach the 9 min. Just because I exercise regularly doesn't mean I am reinforcing the notion of self or doership. In any case, action is always without self.

It also does not mean that "will" has no place at all. "Will" is often misunderstood to be linked to a self or agent that has full control over things, whereas it is simply more manifestation and conditions. Yes, sheer will going against conditions isn't going to work – this is not understanding no-self and dependent origination. But if will is directed properly with correct understanding of no-self and conditionality, at a proper path and practice, it can lead to benefits.

That is why the first teaching of Buddha is the four noble truths: the truth of suffering, the cause of suffering, the end of suffering, the way to end suffering. This path arises as a result of his direct insight into no-self and dependent origination.

Like a doctor, you don't tell your patients "you are fated to be ill and sick and in pain, because there is no individual controller, everything is the will of God". That is nonsense. Instead, you diagnose the illness, you seek the cause of illness, you give a treatment that eliminates the cause of illness. There is no self, there is no controller, but there is conditions and manifestation and a way to treat bad conditions. This is the way of the four noble truths.

libido SG

What is the significance of classifying volition generated based on the three channels I. e. thinking, speech and action?

An Eternal Now SG

There is volitional thoughts, volitional speech and volitional bodily actions. These are the three kinds of volitional action.

libido SG

Volitions r also said to be classified by six door senses. E.g. eye contact volition.

For an example, a person's eyes see a nice girl, feeling says agreeable, volition = go over and talk (speech volition) to her...............Later later both get married (karma)?

Any comments or if u hv a better example? I really hope to understand volition properly.