Basic buddhist concepts analysed in a Christian website

last SG · 2012-12-12T09:15:01+00:00

Re the flag and the wind, I believe the answer has got to do with the mind, but this is not the proper answer to give at all. It is again more like playing m...

2009novice SG

The Bible teaches the existence of the ONE who is also THREE, the triune Godhead. And this being exists independently of anything else.

The quote that i mention refers to Buddhist understanding of phenomena arising and disintegrating... not pointing at Christianity

Weychin SG

It is precisely the clinging to self that cause unsatisfactoriness in our daily lives. It is also the attachment to notion of permanant self that causes rebirth, the never ending cycle of samsara. Knowing and accepting that self is a mind construct of the aggregates and depend on the aggregates and does not exist outside of it that we begin to let go.

1. Which comes back to the question, does the Self exist? If it does not, then why do we go about our daily lives as if it does? Wouldn't it be more plausible and more rational to conclude that the Self does exist instead of trying to suppress our daily experience? I think a litmus test of a true worldview must be such that we can live it out consistently. I suspect that your reply would that the "Self" is an illusion once we have deconstructed ourselves in a philosophical manner. But this begs the question: why even do that at all?

2. Having a belief in God is a different issue than the question of whether there is a God. Whatever the motivation one has for believing in God, it is irelevant to the question of whether there is a God. Do you agree?

3. You said that the existence of God is not evident. I beg to differ. I think it is very evident. What atheists do is to deny or suppress the obvious or the evident. Just like the existence of a painting points to the existence of a painter, the existence of the universe points to the existence of a Creator. In fact, the existence of living things (each designed to do what it does) points to an intelligent Designer.

Weychin SG

Self shares similiar characteristics as the shadow, it is dependent on the collection of conditions to exist. As long as your consciousness and the aggregates and interaction continues, self exist . However, because you are unable to see the relationship of self, you will continue to delude and cling to the notion of self. The perception of the illumination and the body appear more real because they are less transient. But light requires energy to be generated with a fuel source conditions there will be no light, the moving body require constant air, nourishment, without which life ceases and upon death decomposes and disintegrates.

The question is, why do you equate the self with the shadow or see both as analogous? I think the analogy of the shadow is flawed. The shadow is cast because there are REAL objects like the sun and the object on which the light calls upon. The shadow is real because we can observe it, but it has no physical properties, it is just the absence of light because light travels in sraight lines. It disappears and move in accordance with the light source and the object. It is temporal but certainly not illusory. To call it illusory is to apply the wrong vocabulary. The laws of nature are set in place by a Creator God to give us the phenomena we observe in our daily lives. Just because things work in tandem or interact with each other does not negate their reality or render them illusory.

2009novice SG

1. You have confused self with something else. Why would you think that to have a self means you have the powers to be what you want? You are a human being, you can be all you want as a human being to the best of your own capabilities, but you can't be a bird just because you have a self. Self basically means there is a YOU or ME to talk about. It does not mean or require omnipotence.

2. You grow from a baby to an adult. You are still you, only that you have grown in stature, in maturity, thinking etc. Why? Because that's how God made us! The person is growing, so why would you say this means there is no self?

3. You said the universe is born, which means it has a beginning. Then what caused the universe to begin?

4. The issue of an intelligent designer is not to be confused with the issue of the character of the designer. The Bible explains why the world we live in is not pretty but rather filled with suffering and death. I am sure you know what the Bible teaches on this. In the beginning God created a perfect world without sin and death. Man sinned against God and brought death into the world. So when we look at the misery around us, we are looking at a sin-cursed fallen world. It wasn't like that in the beginning.

5. Only an intelligent designer can explain the intelligence of humans. God created man and told him to fill the earth, and to tend the Garden and the ground. Adam was the first man to classify and give names to the animals, and he was to have dominion over what God has made on the earth, not to abuse it but as steward.

yes actually i'm quite confused..... if Christianity mentions that self is something permanent, then how do we mature...? It should be "fixed" am I right? If that is what God made us, then it should be impermanent. But then again, if it is impermanent, it will contradict with the first statement. I can't find a permanent self in here.

If universe has a beginning, then it must end somehow. If it's doesn't end, it is permanent. If it is permanent, then logically speaking, the universe can't grow, evolve, or expand whatever. Then where are we now...?

If Man sinned against God, then why do I drag in the cruelty, savage animal food chain? This design is obviously flawed, or just a prank...?

If going by what you claim- only the intelligent designer can question the human intelligence, then i will really feel regrettable and sad for the wisdom and hard work of our ancestors... It will not only discredit, denigrate them, but also to force people to accept that only God can improve our lives.A little too passive...?

Sorry a bit more questions on Christianity... why God created Man in the image of himself...? (am i correct?) And why it looks like a caucasian but not negro, asian look? Is it biased? Why Man sinned if it is created by God...? It should be a perfect design right?

Does Man's mind contain Greed, Anger, Ignorance...? If no, then why Adam picked the apple? Does it indirectly mean God himself has Greed, Anger and Ignorance too?

What happens to a good person that does not believe in God? Will he be banished into Hell forever?

If Hell is eternal damnation and what can the good people in heaven do? The Bible teach selfless right...? But are they really, completely selfless?

you see, my questions have nothing to do with God. Why? I think my questions are related to how people interpret their own God. I am questioning on the interpretation u see?

Lastly, some questions about you BIC. Why did you choose Christianity? Why not Hindu God of Creator but Christianity...?

Are you in this Buddhist forum to clear the misunderstanding about Christianity or are you trying to use Christianity to argue on erroneous buddhist concepts? If it is the latter, you may have waste your time and effort... apple and orange cannot be compared together.

You see, if something, a source or whatever u may called it is permanent, was told to hold on dearly to it is unimaginable. But by doing so i am subjecting myself to stress. I am adhering myself to suffering... All phenomena just.... come and go... not by some intelligent design whatsoever. It is readily observable, not abstract... e.g. weather, food turning bad, etc etc.... to make things understandable. My body itself is also going to age and spoil soon... If God can end all my sufferings, i will be Christian straight away

Please don't use God to conveniently answer my questions... it's too convenient... way too convenient....

Weychin SG

Software and hardware is created by software and manufacturers, who in return are dependant on demand of consumers and resources made available to them. A chicken is created from an egg with conditions being right, which in turn is created by a female fowl with conditions being right. Similiarly humans are created by humans with conditions ideal and present. Since beginless time this is how lifeforms have being created and how life is perpetuated. This how life exists, with conditions being present and right.

Question then is, who built the software and hardware? I think an intelligent cause best accounts for it, don't you agree?

Weychin SG

Upon investigation and absence of habitation of monsters and pontianaks, one can say rationalisation have been utilised in this instance. If the belief in ghost, demons or gods does not encrouch ones' daily lives, one usually does not apply rationality on such beliefs. Beliefs can inherited from one's family or community, or it can a payment in acceptance to a peer group or tribal identity. It can also be a constant reminders of paying praises to one's deity, thus imprinting notion of deity into one's mind. It can also be reinforced by going into rapture, either in trance or speaking in tongues during religious gatherings. This are practices done by otherwise rational people. Superstitious if you do not agree with them

Which begs the question, on what basis do you think that God is just like monsters or pontianak under the bed or on the roof which just exist as a figment of one's imagination? It's just like people saying that belief in God is just like belief in Santa Claus. But this is merely an assertion, or a mere dismissal by associating one with the other. No rational person believes that Santa Claus is a real person who flies on a reindeer-pulled carriage and deposits gifts down chimneys on Christmas day, but there are many such rational people who believe in God while not believing in Santa Claus. You need to interact with the reasons for faith, instead of dismissing it caverlierly.

Weychin SG

Buddhism is about no self, therefore no eternal soul or creator. No self is profound and without investigation and single pointedness, cannot be entered upon! Is is not unusual to lump different religons together.

It would be pretty much the same with Buddhism and many religions which have their own sacred texts.

Weychin SG

The past is infinite and so is the future. The begining of something also means the end of something. What you posit as begining of creation is just a point in the continuim of time. Buddhism cultivates on the "now", the present.

Yes, we do have a brain and a mind that works. But I do not believe that it is because our brains have adapted, which is an evolutionary explanation. I believe we are created in God's image, completely different from the animal world. Our closest relatives are not the apes in the zoo or in the wild, but fellow humans. We are all related by descent from Adam and Eve that God created as fully mature and functioning human beings, not from some apelike brutish creature.

What do you mean when you say that theistic religions like Christianity is about empowerment or entitlement? Yes, I do have some understanding of the 4 Noble Truths and the 8 Fold Paths taught in Buddhism. It attempts to address the issue of suffering and death. In my view, the meaning of anything is tied up with its origins. Where does death comes from? In fact, where does life comes from? Where does suffering comes from? All these things are addressed in the Bible.

Weychin SG

Sufferings comes from one’s ignorance and one’s clingings.

BroInChrist SG

1. In the Bible it is not self, or the clinging to it, that cause suffering. It is sin i.e. rebellion against God, that causes suffering. Had Adam and Eve obeyed God rather than the serpent there would have been no suffering and death. Other than God who is independent and necessary, all of creation is contingent, dependent on many things, ultimately dependent upon God's upholding of the creation. That does not negate self, but only points to the fact that apart from God, nothing can exists, not even life.

2. Our self shares similarities with the shadows only in the sense that both are contingent, dependent arising as you say. But just because we are contingent beings it does not mean that such are illusory or even likened to being illusory. Illusory means illusion, not real. Things that are contingent or temporary are not necessarily illusory. You can say that man is made up of 5 aggregates, I can say that man is made up of many "parts". But the question is, who created man or designed man to function as he does? Again, creation presupposes an intelligent Mind.

3. You are right to say that software and hardware are created by humans. This points to intelligent design. Same with humans. We are specially designed to function the way we do, and this points to a being of supreme intelligence, God. Life exists not because the conditions are right, but because God created life. Having the right conditions for life is necessary but not sufficient. A dead body have all the necessary ingredients for life, but it is dead. God breathed into Adam and he became "nephesh Chayah", a living soul.

4. The point about monsters under the bed is that there is such a thing as objective truth. If there are none under the bed, then the belief that there is must be false.

5. I understand that Buddhism is about no self, I just find that this idea is incoherent and inconsistent in so many ways and run counter to daily experience. It is like saying that there is no such thing as language or logic, one would have to presuppose them to even deny them!

6. The past is not infinite simply because time has a beginning. While a beginning must have a cause, what has begun may or may not have an end. We do not have now if there was no past. To understand now we need information about the past, otherwise we only work with incomplete knowledge and may apply wrong solution.

7. Suffering comes when Adam wilfully ignored God's command and disobeyed God by eating from the forbidden tree. The Bible does not teach that man is ignorant, but that man is in rebellion against his Creator.

Steveyboy SG

Dear BroInChrist,

Here are my answers to your questions:-

1. In what sense is conversion to Buddhism from Christianity a novelty? Even if it is a novelty, what is the significance of that?

Of course it is a novelty because Christians have always been more evangelical and aggressively converting people to Christianity. Even as a Catholic, I have had so many other Christians telling me that my church is wrong and that I am going to hell and that I have to go to their church, its ridiculous. However, I have so far not heard of a Christian converting to Buddhism and do feel I am a unique 1. However, I heard of my friends who were Buddhists being converted to Christianity though. Hence, I think I am rather unique.

2. Yes, Buddhism teaches how to get out of suffering. But it never addresses the question of origins. It sidesteps it entirely and dismisses it as irrelevant. There is IMO a lack of the big picture and a complete view of things.

Yes, the Buddha never explicitly described our origins and Buddhist scholars interpret his silence to be because it is not important for our spiritual development at this point and that the truth may be too much for us to understand. Buddhists believe that we have so many previous lives that it is way to far to trace our origins. Buddha talked about other worlds and that this world we live in is just one amongst many. On the other hand, the bible say that God created Adam, Eve and the world and universe in 7 days. I am sorry, I find that even harder to believe and there's no shred of evidence for that one.

3. Indeed the Buddha is an ordinary man who claimed to have an answer to the problem of suffering and death, and who also succumbed to death eventually. Christianity teaches that God came down as man, suffered and died on the cross, and rose from the dead to show that death has been overcome. But Buddhism does not explain why or where man come from, but the Bible teaches that God created us.

If Christ overcame death, can you show me another Christian who had achieved that same state?

4. You claimed to have been a convert from Christianity, but have you read Genesis? What does it say at the end of Day Six of creation week? God's says it was "very good". What do you think He meant by that? If you have never considered this deeply, perhaps now is a good time to refresh yourself on this.

I am sorry, I don't believe in the bible, especially the Old Testament.

5. You think God is unable to stop evil? Then the God you reject is not the God of the Bible. God has already told us the future, evil will be no more and the curse will be no more. Have you read Revelation? You can't claim to have read that and then say that Satan is stronger than God.

Why does he need to wait till then? Why can't he do it now? Why does God have to put everyone to the test? He sounds like a powerful bored petulant child and treating us mortals as mere toys.

6. What about people who never heard of God? Well, the Bible teaches about this too in the book of Romans. Have you read it?

Your point eludes me. I have read it a long time ago. So, I have to believe in God in order to be saved. A sinner who had sinned his whole life and at the moment of death, he says he believes in God and that wipes out his whole lifetime of sin and goes to heaven? What about those who have been virtuous their whole lives but never believed in God. They go to hell or purgatory?

7. Lastly, what particular issues do you think that the Bible does not answer but only Buddhism can? To be sure, the Bible does not claim to answer everything, and I don't think the Buddha answered everything too. So perhaps you may wish to clarify?

Let me get this straight, Buddhism and Christianity have answers for both but I find that the answers provided in Buddhism suits me better. Pscyhologists are having conferences with Buddhist scholars and they found similarities. Past life regression is now a legitimate field of study without any Hindu-Buddhist association.

Even the greatest physicists of the 20th Century, Albert Einstein says this about Buddhism,

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and the spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity. The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism. "

That's all I need. Buddhism may not suit you but its ok. It suits me.

BroInChrist SG

If Man sinned against God, then why do I drag in the cruelty, savage animal food chain? This design is obviously flawed, or just a prank...?

Does Man's mind contain Greed, Anger, Ignorance...? If no, then why Adam picked the apple? Does it indirectly mean God himself has Greed, Anger and Ignorance too?

What happens to a good person that does not believe in God? Will he be banished into Hell forever?

If Hell is eternal damnation and what can the good people in heaven do? The Bible teach selfless right...? But are they really, completely selfless?

you see, my questions have nothing to do with God. Why? I think my questions are related to how people interpret their own God. I am questioning on the interpretation u see?

Lastly, some questions about you BIC. Why did you choose Christianity? Why not Hindu God of Creator but Christianity...?

Please don't use God to conveniently answer my questions... it's too convenient... way too convenient....

1. Christianity does not teach about a permanent self. Or a nonexistent self for that matter. The Bible teaches that there is a God who created everything, including humans in His image. Every human being is a distinct and unique person. So there is a you, me, him, her, to speak of in real terms. All creation is contingent, having no existence apart from God who always existed. The Bible does not mention about permanence. It does mention about things eternal, things immortal. The universe is not permanent or eternal. But God can sustain it forever if He so chooses to.

2. The Bible speaks of the present heavens and earth passing away with a big bang. Ironically this big bang is something coming, not something that has happened 14 billion years ago. The present universe is observed to be expanding still, and the Bible speaks about God stretching out the heavens. Hmmm....

3. Man sinned against God and the whole creation was cursed. Sin affects everything. Death entered the world, the whole of creation groans as taught in the epistle of Romans. If you kill someone, it's not just you and the dead person, it's more than that.

4. I do not quite get your point about only the intelligent designer can question the human intelligence. Can you clarify that part? Why would the existence of God makes you feel regrettable about anything?

5. The Bible says God created man in His image but does not tell us explicitly why. But if I may offer my opinions, it would be so that we can have fellowhip with Him. Animals are not created in God's image, thus they do not worship God or have any personal relationship with God. Whether Ang Moh or Black or White, we are all human beings, descended from Adam and Eve. Our so-called racial differences are only skin deep. Do you know that we are all of one blood? We are of the same human race. We are of the same mankind. We are of the same colour, just different shades of the same pigment melanin. The more you have the darker you are. Race has NO biological meaning, it is entirely a social construct, and one that cause no small amount of misery and division.

6. God created Adam and Eve perfect, innocent, without sin. But God also endowed Adam with free will. It was the wrong choice and action that led to Adam's fall from perfection. Nothing is wrong with God at all.

7. What happens to a good person? Does he go to hell? Well, what do you mean by a good person to begin with? Good in terms of what? Compared to what? Whose standard of goodness are you using to call someone good? Yours, Hitler, Mother Teresa, or God Himself? You need an absolute yardstick of morality. Being morally good is not good enough, you need to be morally PERFECT, just like God is.

8. You said your questions have nothing to do with God but only interpretation. I don't see how that is so. In any case, God is the subject and undergirds the Christian answer. Even if you think my interpretation is incorrect, you have to show that your interpretation is correct.

10. Why I choose Christianity? Well, I became a Christian at a young age. But through the years as I study and learn about my faith (and others) I see that the Christian worldview is the only true worldview. This may not be politically correct to say, but I believe it.

11. I am in this forum to exchange views, and in the process to correct wrong views about Christianity that Buddhists may have. And I hope that I have conducted myself well so far and have been cordial and polite. In the process I am also corrected on my wrong views concerning Buddhism. I will be frank to say upfront that I believe many teachings of Buddhism are false, and I believe you will also say that many teachings of Christianity are false too. But such need not cause offense at all. It is only logical that two contradictory teachings on a given subject cannot be both true at the same time and in the same sense.

12. You need to make the right distinction between contingent and necessary beings. The entire creation is contingent, it does not have existence apart from God calling it into existence. It is not permanent or eternal unless God decides it to be so. All observed phenomena that we observe is contingent upon God's sustaining power. God sets the laws of nature in place. If He withholds His hand then everything will fall apart.

13. In the Bible there is lots of suffering, so what makes you say that you will become a Christian if God will end your suffering? Even Christ suffered. Just to end suffering is a very myopic view of life. Life is more than just trying to end suffering. In this world there will be tribulation because this is a fallen world. But God promises to restore all things.

14. To ask me not to use God to answer your questions is like to ask the soldier to lay down his weapons in fighting the enemy. If I do not use God or the Bible, then what do I use? My opinions? They count for nothing. But God's Word is infallible and trustworthy. It is not a convenient answer, that would be an insult and mocking my efforts and time in answering the questions here, but I believe they are true answers that explains what needs explaining.

BroInChrist SG

Dear BroInChrist,

Here are my answers to your questions:-

1. In what sense is conversion to Buddhism from Christianity a novelty? Even if it is a novelty, what is the significance of that?

If Christ overcame death, can you show me another Christian who had achieved that same state?

I am sorry, I don't believe in the bible, especially the Old Testament.

Why does he need to wait till then? Why can't he do it now? Why does God have to put everyone to the test? He sounds like a powerful bored petulant child and treating us mortals as mere toys.

6. What about people who never heard of God? Well, the Bible teaches about this too in the book of Romans. Have you read it?

Even the greatest physicists of the 20th Century, Albert Einstein says this about Buddhism,

That's all I need. Buddhism may no suit you but its ok. It suits me.

1. Perhaps you do feel unique in being a convert to Buddhism from Roman Catholicism. But still it is irrelevant to the question of truth claims. Like you said, it can be just mere novelty and nothing more. Thus my point about the significance of it.

2. Why would you find it hard to believe that God created the universe but easy to believe the non-answer (i.e. silence or sidestepping the issue) that Buddhism give? Is there any evidence for other worlds or universes besides ours?

3. Buddha was an ordinary man who died. He never claimed to be God or infallible. Christ died and rose from the dead, the first. The Bible does not teach that Christians will now all resurrect from the dead, so your theology and expectation is already wrong. But the Bible does teach that there will come a resurrection of all from the dead, when judgement day comes.

4. I am not asking if you believe the OT, I am asking if you KNOW what Genesis taught. Apparently not it seems.

5. The Bible gives the answer as to why God does not close human history now. It says that God is patient and not willing that all will perish, but that many will seek salvation in Him. It is not about God's ability to stop evil, but God's patience and willingness to us.

6. Sorry. Believing in God does not save you from hell. The Bible says that even the demons believe in one God. Salvation is about trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross as the basis for reconciliation with God.

7. The choice of faith should not be a matter of preference, but of truth, since religions make truth claims. It's not whether you like this like ice cream flavours. Einstein is a scientist, not an authority on religion. That would be a fallacious appeal to authority. In any case, there is dogma in Buddhism. Do you avoid dogma in Buddhism? I don't think so.

jlowbog SG

It seems tat bchrist r trying very hard to defend christianity, but as u c there r just too many loop holes in the bible not to mention tat anyone rich enough can come up with their own ver of bilble. u said god create human to be look like him, y is tat so, do god behave the same way as human or wat. Since god is omnipotent, then y did he not use his power to make human obey his again and y did he let human to sin, give them chance again..y did he go thru all this troubles n for wat…for fun, i doubt so…U also said god created universe for human but he himself live in another dimension or universe…y cant he live together with human in this same dimension or universe…is he despising human or wat…??

BroInChrist SG

1. Yes, defending Christianity does take some effort. Usually that is so because most critics of Christianity know little about what they criticise.

2. What do you mean by loop holes in the Bible.

3. Sure, anyone with the money can come up with their own version of the Bible, but what's this point supposed to prove about the Bible?

4. God created man in His image, simply means that humans reflect God in SOME ways, not in every aspect. It is not that God is like man, but man is like God.

5. Certainly God can make man do His bidding. But then you won't be man, but robot. What kind of meaningful reciprocal relationship is there? And indeed none of redemption history was for fun. God is not a capricious God.

6. If you have read the Bible you would know that those who are in Christ i.e. the church is God's dwelling place. God lives in us since we are the spiritual temple, to those who believe in Him and trust in Him. That's the God revealed, not some distant aloof being, but One who dwells in His people. Transcendent yet immanent.

[imdestinyz] SG

lets not keep things heated up Smile defense undermines discussion. Broad mindedness breeds discussion.

[imdestinyz] SG

1. Yes, defending Christianity does take some effort. Usually that is so because most critics of Christianity know little about what they criticise.

2. What do you mean by loop holes in the Bible.

3. Sure, anyone with the money can come up with their own version of the Bible, but what's this point supposed to prove about the Bible?

4. God created man in His image, simply means that humans reflect God in SOME ways, not in every aspect. It is not that God is like man, but man is like God.

what aspect does human reflect god?

BroInChrist SG

what aspect does human reflect god?

See http://creation.com/made-in-the-image-of-god

troublemaker2005 SG

3. You said the universe is born, which means it has a beginning. Then what caused the universe to begin?

1. why i wanna bea bird. i can fly takeing a plane already!

2. god dont make babies. i fuck my woman and she got preganat from my sperms on her fertilized egss that make another me.

3. why ask about beginning? you also dont know how it came about right?

4.what bible also artisitc arh?

5.how to define intelligent? you? god? book?

troublemaker2005 SG

k********** this b******* posts very long winded - like the 'God' he preaches. professinal beggars league! go nback to your eternal now forums lah!

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