Blood Sacrifice

last SG · 2013-01-20T16:32:12+00:00

If God exists, then God would have told us how to get right with Him. Surely this would have implications for your 8 fold path. Buddha did not claim to hear...

BroInChrist SG

@BroInChrist,

Karma is not a score card. Karma literally means actions and each action we do leaves an indelible mark in our mind. It reinforces our mind either towards selflessness - the concern for others or selfishness, which is the concern for only ourselves. In Buddhism, when we are overly selfish, we create problems for ourselves and we becoming increasingly unhappy. People who are happiest is usually people who are more selfless or those that have others as their concern. So any action leading to either states of mind determines whether it is positive or negative. In the end of the day, karma is registered within the deepest levels of our mind and from this part of our mind, karma will reappear to us as 'fruits' of actions.

Since it is stored within us, that's why we have people with various talents and mental dispositions right from the moment of our births. If karma and retribution was in the hands of God, then God is really biased and unfair and this is totally opposite of how Christians describe him. Why are some people born mute, impaired or left to suffer in diseased and war torn countries while others are born rich and living comfortably in Singapore?

The Bible teaches that we reap what we sow. But this is not to be confused with the doctrine of karma. The Bible also teaches that we should be selfless, again not to be confused with the notion that there is no self. You can't be selfish if there is no self to talk about. Since karma can be positive and negative, why would it not be possible to know where you stand on this karmic register? How much merits must one accumulate to escape samsara? You can't see how far you have gone if you can't look back and see where you have been or take stock of present position.

The idea of karma is foreign to the Bible. The fact of death and suffering is explained in the Bble, it is because we live in a fallen world. There are people born deaf and blind which Jesus healed. But there will come a time when all is restored. Have you read about the man with no limbs? Why is he also happy? See http://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/about-nick/

When we see the world through Biblical lens we come away with a completely new outlook. We understand why the world is the way it is, and we look forward to a new heavens and a new earth.

An Eternal Now SG

Indeed, the idea of karma is foreign to Christianity.

Buddhist karma and Christian 'you reap what you sow' is different because karma is a natural law without an arbiter whereas 'you reap' in Christianity is the result of God's judgement.

An Eternal Now SG

In Buddhism, you know you have made enough merits to escape samsara when 1) you have a human life instead of a birth in other realms which are by far much more numerous than the human realm in comparison [e.g. ants by itself outnumber human tens of millions of times in numbers] 2) you are not born with a disability such as hearing and seeing impairment that prevents the study and practise of dharma, 3) you are not born in a place where the dharma is not known, such as some places in Africa or certain Islamic countries, etc. 4) you actually meet with the dharma/Buddhist teachings, or a Buddhist teacher, or sangha/community that practises the teachings

When we qualify all these, we know we have obtained an incredibly rare birth and circumstance conducive to our attainment of liberation, through tremendous merits we have accumulated in past and present lives. We actually have such tremendous merits as to achieve a birth that is more rare than striking a million dollar jackpot.

Then the rest is really up to us whether we want to waste away our precious birth in worldly foolishness, or to actually practise the dharma to attain liberation. Liberation is not so much about merits (though merits are important), it is more about attaining wisdom. Merits merely aid us, but is not the sole or even primary cause of liberation. The more direct cause is to attain penetrative insights and wisdom into the nature of reality through vipassana/vipashyana or insight meditation.

BroInChrist SG

Indeed, the idea of karma is foreign to Christianity.

Buddhist karma and Christian 'you reap what you sow' is different because karma is a natural law without an arbiter whereas 'you reap' in Christianity is the result of God's judgement.

In Christianity, "reaping and sowing" has both a natural order meaning and a moral order meaning. In a natural order meaning, it means the laws of nature applies. If you jump off the cliff without parachute, you reap the consequences of a splattered body at the base. In a moral order meaning, it means if you do wrong then you must face the moral (and legal) consequences that come with it. It also means that only moral agents can enforce a moral law. God is a moral being, and thus created humans as moral beings too. Thus God's moral standards apply, He tells us what is right and wrong. He is the absolute moral standard. And He judges rightly in accordance to His holy and just character.

This is different from Buddhism where Karma is a natural law, inanimate. Is it then a moral law? But how is morality enforced by something that is itself just natural law, like the law of gravity? A moral Person can judge right and wrong, how does a natural law make that judgement?

BroInChrist SG

Assuming that you are an ant, how does an ant (i.e you) accumulate good karma for itself so that it does not become an ant (or something less than an ant) in the next life? An ant does what it does, doesn't it?

An Eternal Now SG

Buddhist karma is not so much about 'right' and 'wrong'. It is more about wholesome and unwholesome actions. No judge is involved.

For example, a seed of hatred etched deep in one's mind will eventually grow into a fruit, a result, and that karmic result must naturally correspond to that seed or karmic cause, which is why those who are always killing other beings are going to be reborn in a place of suffering such as hell. It is impossible that a seed that is rooted in craving, aggression and delusion can result in any true happiness.

The Pali word kamma or the Sanskrit word karma (from the root kr to do) literally means ‘action’, ‘doing’. But in the Buddhist theory of karma it has a specific meaning: it means only ‘volitional action’ not all action. In Buddhist terminology karma never means its effect; its effect is known as the ‘fruit’ or the ‘result’ of karma.

The theory of karma should not be confused with so-called ‘moral justice’ or ‘reward and punishment’. The idea of moral justice arises out of the conception of a supreme being, a God, who sits in judgement, who is a law-giver and who decides what is right and wrong.

The theory of karma is the theory of cause and effect, of action and reaction; it is a natural law, which has nothing to do with the idea of justice or reward and punishment. Every volitional action produces its effects or results. If a good action produces good effects, it is not justice, or reward, meted out by anybody or any power sitting in judgement of your action, but this is in virtue of its own nature, its own law. This is not difficult to understand. But what is difficult is that, according to karma theory, the effects of a volitional action may continue to manifest themselves even in a life after death. (Walpola Rahula, What the Buddha Taught)

BroInChrist SG

Then in Buddhist thought do you call something e.g. rape, murder, adultery, wrong or merely unwholesome? And who/what decides what is wholesome or unwholesome? It would seem to be ultimately dictated by outcome and not by the act. There is mention of a good action, what then is good? It's hard to detach it from any moral judgement, yet you seem to say that it has nothing to do with justice. And if something is just a natural law, then it makes no sense to call anything right or wrong, just or unjust.

An Eternal Now SG

You can judge it to be 'wrong', I wouldn't have problem with that. But karma in and of itself isn't about 'wrong' or 'right'... karma is either wholesome, unwholesome, and pure [i.e. actions not done out of craving, aggression and delusion].

With regards to karma, nobody decides something to be wholesome or unwholesome just like nobody decides something to be black or white... what is black is seen to be black by a discerning eye, and a black seed seen plainly in sight produces a black result, while a white seed produces a white result... just like a black animal produces a black offspring and a white animal produces a white offspring. A chinese man produces a chinese offspring, a western man produces a western offspring [lets not talk about mix blood]. You don't need to "judge" if someone is a chinese, i.e. his skin colour is already plain in sight for you to see, and if you have the intelligence to discern. Seeing is enough, no need for judgement. Same goes for karma.

When the Buddha calls it 'wholesome' or 'unwholesome' he is not making a judgement on things, he is simply describing the action and its results. What is wholesome produces states of well being, happiness, freedom from suffering and afflictions. What is unwholesome is... well... the opposite of that.

For example smoking two packs of cigarettes a day is certainly unwholesome because it does damage to one's body. You don't get cancer because of someone's judgement that it is 'evil' and 'wrong', you get cancer because smoking is unwholesome, it causes addiction and the tars accumulate and cause cancer. We don't say smoking is 'evil' or 'wrong' - well, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but regardless of your opinion whether it is 'right' or 'wrong' - it is a fact that smoking is 'unwholesome', so karma is non-judgemental in that sense yet can be catergorized as wholesome/unwholesome with its corresponding effects:

Buddha:

3. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

4. "And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the unwholesome, what is the wholesome, what is the root of the wholesome? Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome.

5. "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

6. "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome.

7. "And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome.

8. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma."

sinweiy SG

Gravity and friction are examples of natural law. to gravity, there's either up/repel or down/attract. to friction, there's stop and go. there's opposition everywhere. dark and light, male and female etc.

BroInChrist SG

The laws of nature (physics, chemistry, biology etc) are not to be confused with the laws of morality. But both have their source in an eternal Mind, God.

sinweiy SG

The laws of nature (physics, chemistry, biology etc) are not to be confused with the laws of morality. But both have their source in an eternal Mind, God.

there's still a discriminating mind at work.

BroInChrist SG

there's still a discriminating mind at work.

Yes, the divine Mind of God.

BroInChrist SG

Buddha:

5. "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

It seems that the only basis for using the words "wholesome" or "unwholesome" is simply because of the rejection of God. Otherwise, in most instances cited the words would be "good" or "evil" in a moral sense. Everyday we make moral judgements, we call some behaviour good or bad, and some evil. Our legal system uses the same lingo, recognising somethings as good and evil, right and wrong, just and unjust.

Why is covetousness, greed, adultery, murder etc wrong? Because God said so. He made us, so He sets the rules. It is not the 10 Suggestions, but the 10 Commandments. God sets the moral standards by which we are judged.

I submit that underlying the Buddhist notions of wholesome and unwholesome actions is some knowledge that some things are just plain wrong. Murder is not just unwholesome, it is evil. Hitler wasn't just doing unwholesome acts, he was actually an evil person and did evil things that required punishment.

I think it still somehow comes back to the question, is there a Creator God? If there is, it changes the whole game, doesn't it?

An Eternal Now SG

I think it still somehow comes back to the question, is there a Creator God? If there is, it changes the whole game, doesn't it?

Well again, that is entirely your opinion whether something is evil or not. Karma is not about good/bad, evil, wrong/right, etc. 'Wholesome' 'unwholesome' is describing something factual - nonjudgemental. Smoking causes cancer and is thus 'unwholesome', this is factual. No judgement required, only a discerning eye and intelligence to see that it is so.

You say Hitler is evil... I'd think otherwise. I think he is seeking happiness in a very ignorant way for his people. His compassion for his people is limited by his inability to feel beyond his limited nationalistic and racial scope or identity.

Just like a lion/lioness loves its cubs but kills deers, etc.

So his actions and thoughts are indeed very very unwholesome... and it is rooted in the three roots of unwholesome karma which Buddha said is craving, aggression, and delusion.

But still his actions were founded in, albeit very deluded, intentions for the welfare of his people.

An Eternal Now SG

It seems that the only basis for using the words "wholesome" or "unwholesome" is simply because of the rejection of God.

No, not necessarily. You don't see the government telling people "smoking cigarettes is evil". You see them telling people "smoking cigarettes is unhealthy and causes early death".

You see, whether smoking cigarettes is evil or not is besides the point. And you are entitled to your own opinion whether smoking is evil. But the purpose of the government is to tell us the harmful, factual, effects of smoking. The government has a job to educate us about cause and effect, same with Buddha. It has nothing to do with rejection of God. The government didn't avoid saying "smoking is evil" because it rejects God, and even if the government is Christian, saying that "smoking is evil" is still besides the point.

The fact is that whether smoking is evil or not, or whether there is a God or not, smoking IS going to accumulate tar in the lungs that causes cancer etc.

BroInChrist SG

I think you have misunderstood. I am not saying that everything have a moral judgement involved. Though I would qualify my statement by saying that it was because of Adam's rebellion that death and suffering (which cancer can cause) entered the perfect world that God created.

In the Bible, God tells us what is right and wrong. When we say something is evil we are only aligning ourselves with God's view. Which is why God is angry with those who call evil good and good evil.

If Hitler was just ignorant and seeking happiness in his own way, then he ought not be judged. He is not morally wrong or accountable. We do not bring lions to court and put them on trial and charge them with murder etc, and it would seem that to be consistent you wouldn't do that to Hitler, or any wrongdoer for that matter. Is that your view?

The point about Hitler was not about his lack of compassion or his ignorance, but that he was guided and influenced by the scientists of his day who championed Darwinian causes and ethics, to root out the weaker races to prevent them from contaminating the Aryan superior race, and to breed an elite race of supermen. You can see the documentation here http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Nazi-Darwinian-worldview-Holocaust/dp/1894400496

An Eternal Now SG

Buddhism strives to overcome the roots of the unwholesome, i.e. craving, aggression, and delusion. We strive to cultivate wisdom and compassion, and through wisdom and compassion, we no longer need to follow rules/precepts/commandments. Because the underlying tendency towards the unwholesome is eliminated.

If you have great compassion, there is no need for you to practice non-violence. There is already no violence in your mind. If you have great wisdom, there is no need for you to practice the precepts of non-killing, etc etc... the underlying tendencies towards them are eliminated.

BroInChrist SG

1. The government does not deny the fact that there is good or evil even if they do not say that smoking is evil, though they say it is harmful to health. I would also make the distinction between a moral issue and a health issue. BTW, I do not hold the view that smoking is evil, anymore than to say that drinking is evil.

2. I think the issue is again not that cancer brings death. We are again back to the issue of origins. Life comes first, not death. Where then does life come from? Even if you say the conditions are right, they are not sufficient to cause life, as I have explained earlier. Life comes only from life. God, who is Life, created life. God, who is Mind, made man intelligent. God, who is a moral being, created us as moral beings. A car doesn't come together because of right conditions, but because intelligence was applied to materials. A car existed in the mind before it became matter.

An Eternal Now SG

Well, the fact that he was guided and influenced by the misguided notions of 'weaker' and 'stronger' races or the notion that their own race is the 'Aryan superior race' - that already proves my point that Hitler is guided by ignorance.

He may have good (or rather what he felt was good) intentions for his people and race and for the future of mankind. But it is guided by ignorance and lack of being able to extend compassion beyond his limited nationalistic and racial scope.

Hitler should be made accountable to his actions before a court of law, no doubt, but not necessarily because it is 'evil' or 'wrong' but because he was responsible for so many unwholesome actions such as the deaths of so many people and countless untold sufferings as a result of his actions driven by the mental afflictions of craving, aggression and delusion. The court of law's job is simply to ensure that law and order is enforced on the people. If no law and order is enforced, people will be free to commit crimes without deterrence.

Lastly I understand your point about God and God's judgement... I'm just saying this does not apply to Buddhist karma.

An Eternal Now SG

1) In Buddhism, morality and health is intertwined. Why? Morality to us means actions that does not bring harm and suffering to oneself and others. The (physical and mental) health of oneself and others is intimately linked with the moral actions, or whether one's actions is wholesome or unwholesome.

For example: Engaging in violence is unwholesome because 1) seeds of violence negatively affects one's psyche - participants of war often have flashback, nightmares, terrors, depression, are very likely going to commit suicide, etc, just look at war veterans 2) it causes harm and suffering on others, which produces karmic effects on oneself in the future as well, both in this and future lifetimes.

Engaging in violence is not "evil" or "wrong" "because Buddha said so" but because it has unwholesome effects on one's and another's "health" or "well-being". It causes suffering rather than alleviate suffering.

Actions that alleviate or does not bring harm and suffering are wholesome.

In Buddhism, also, wholesome actions is *NOT* an ends in our practice. It is merely a support for the cultivation of samadhi (meditative concentration) and wisdom/prajna, that perceives the nature of reality to achieve liberation from afflictions. Without a base of morality, one will be tied up with remorse, with all the negative mental disturbances (like the war veterans) that one can hardly achieve mental concentration and wisdom. Morality is not an end, but a means to an end. The end, the goal, is liberation and morality alone is insufficient to achieve it, but merely a support.

2) I understand the point that Christian God breathes life on people. I already said it before and there is such experience that one feels like being lived and given life by a higher power.

But the Buddhist understand it another way - mindstreams and continuums are without beginning, so it is not that a non-sentient element turns sentient but the sentient mindstream or continuum flows like a river without a beginning through a beginingless stream of cause and effect.

« Previous Page Next Page »