One can't prove that God but science makes God unnecessary

last SG · 2013-01-24T10:27:08+00:00

So were you taught or equipped to handle questions asked about the Christian faith? When you had questions how did you deal with them? like said, long forgot...

reborn76 SG

The above statement was spoken by Stephen Hawking in his book, “The Grand Design”. It dawn me why in the westerners are foregoing their faith.

A lot of people have realised that the age old Creation theory where one believe in a personal God whom we call the Creator is not in line with the sciencific discovery. In fact, most western churches has downplay the Creation theory knowing that it will not go down with the public except for the Asian Fundamental Christian.

In the book, one can see that the Buddhist concept emptiness is form and vice versus (色即是空,空即是色) as mentioned in Heart Sutra is truly scienitific. How profound is the teaching of Buddha, if only we can realised we had a Gem sew to our heritage. May we had the good fortune to discover the truth for ourself through the Dharma!

BroInChrist SG

The above statement was spoken by Stephen Hawking in his book, “The Grand Design”. It dawn me why in the westerners are foregoing their faith.

Sorry but how does science makes God unnecessary? Hawkings is certainly entitled to his opinion but there are many scientists who would disagree with him.

Which scientific discovery would render the belief in a Creator not in line?

The only "scientific" claim that would challenge the notion of a Creator is that of evolution which is really a BELIEF about the past to explain the present.

In what way is the Buddhist concept of emptiness scientific?

Would love to hear your views on the above.

SJS6638 SG

I sense heat coming.

This kind of topic is /////.......................... sensitive. Topic like this can touch the raw nerve of the believers of the so called God.

Later invite flaming ............................................ slamming ...........................

amituofo! O, Buddha, the mercy master! I respect him.

BroInChrist SG

I sense heat coming.

This kind of topic is /////.......................... sensitive. Topic like this can touch the raw nerve of the believers of the so called God.

Later invite flaming ............................................ slamming ...........................

amituofo! O, Buddha, the mercy master! I respect him.

It doesn't have to end up in flaming and slamming. Those who are heated up over such issues should chill.

reborn76 SG

Stephen Hawking’s theory was built upon Einstein theory of Relativity. Many physicists now believe that the universe arose out of nothingness during the Big Bang which means that nothing must have somehow turned into something. Hence Quantum mechanics state that nothing transforms into something all the time. Beside scientist has discovered that the universe is in the state of motion. Perhaps u can read further into it as it is a wide topic.

Hence the discovery tie with Buddhism idea (Heart sutra) that from Form came from Emptiness and everything is in constant state of changes. Changes give rise to Phenomena. When a human react towards the phenomena, the unsatisfactory arises and suffering begin.

In fact, it quite logical because every day we are experiencing changes in our body too. The food we partake which is turn from atoms into energy in our body. In turn, the food atoms is makeup of Sunlight, Water, Air and etc which was convert from unseen particle.

Therefore, at the end of the day, just keep an open heart then you will discover the truth for yourself.

TrueReppuzan SG

Rise Hand. Objection.

Buddhist concept scientific? - NO, disagreed. It is not scientific. Superficial looking, it seems at first the concept is closest to scientific inquiries, but in fact it is very far more distant to scientific principles and facts.

the unsatisfactory arises and suffering begin? - That's B theory, but not true holistically.

science makes God unnecessary ? - Agreed. Of course. That's how the new atheism describe it "Science makes God unnecessary" However I will put it this way, that it is not science that makes GOD unnecesssary, but to having GOD in it is making all the facts become more than crappy.

Dawnfirstlight SG

A Universe From Nothing - By Lawrence Krauss (a recipient of a 2012 Service Award From National Science Board) describes how quantum mechanics can explain how our universe began. Watch it, this video clip is only about 4 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9urEFoaI1iY

(色即是空,空即是色) as mentioned in Heart Sutra is truly scienitific.

BroInChrist SG

Therefore, at the end of the day, just keep an open heart then you will discover the truth for yourself.

But the question is, did the universe came from ABSOLUTELY nothing by nothing? I don't think so. It violates the law of cause and effect. Logically, from nothing nothing comes.

Most people point to Lawrence Krauss as support for this view, but I think Krauss is overstating things too much. See als http://standtherefore.com/blog/nothing-as-popular-as-nothing-in-cosmology/

Or consider this interview below between Sam Harris and Krauss. It seems that Krauss has redefined "nothing" to be actually "something" which he then calls "nothing" which is nothing but misleading. But it also seems to me that atheists are really wanting there to be an effect without a cause to avoid the conclusion that leads to a Creator God. It is an intellectual bias which Krauss admitted to.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/everything-and-nothing

sinweiy SG

universe came about is just like how our dreams come about. when u are in a dream, u cannot find a beginning nor an apocalypse in a dream. cause of it is wandering thoughts, dualism and attachment.

come from nothingness, is more of a saying from Tao De Jing. Buddha's saying is come from the mind心, change from the consciousness识.

《华严经》讲，世出世间一切法，“唯心所现，唯识所变”。

《楞严经》讲，“一切因果，世界微尘，诸法所生，因心成体。

BroInChrist SG

universe came about is just like how our dreams come about. when u are in a dream, u cannot find a beginning nor an apocalypse in a dream. cause of it is wandering thoughts, dualism and attachment.

come from nothingness, is more of a saying from Tao De Jing. Buddha's saying is come from the mind心, change from the consciousness识.

《华严经》讲，世出世间一切法，“唯心所现，唯识所变”。

《楞严经》讲，“一切因果，世界微尘，诸法所生，因心成体。

1. On what basis do you say that the universe came about just like our dreams?

2. The cause of our dreams (which begins when we sleep and ends when we wake) is that we are sleeping and the brain/mind is "working". Our dreams have no objective reality outside of our subjective brain activity. Not so with the universe. It exists even if you or me does not. The cause of the universe (like the cause of dream) is that of a Mind, the mind of God.

3. Which comes back to the question, does the universe have a cause? In my view, it is the height of irrationality to say that nothing caused the universe to exist.

SG.AdultsCircle.com SG

The above statement was spoken by Stephen Hawking in his book, “The Grand Design”. It dawn me why in the westerners are foregoing their faith.

just 1 person and you say the westerners are foregoing their faith

millions of westerners still go church every sunday, what about them?

SG.AdultsCircle.com SG

Having studied cosmology and quantum physics, let me say... there is God, but what is this God, I can't answer you.

I don't like to give science lesson but I just say some points off my mind. You want to know more on each individual topic, go read yourself because each point here is equal to 1 entire science topic on its own.

- Quantum Entanglement. 2 particles can be separated by millions of light years, but an effect to an entangled particle has an immediate effect on another particle. They call it quantum teleportation.

- Collapse of the wave function. Double slit experiment. Something can be at multiple places at the same time until an observer observed it, then it takes on only 1 "position".

- Whatever you see in this visible universe, is only 4% of what there is in the visible universe. What about the other 96%? nobody knows yet.

- 2 decades ago, we thought atoms are the smallest possible object, now we know we can break them down into sub-atomic particles then down to elementary particles, but i believe we can further break them down into even smaller sub-elementary particles and even further to sub-sub-elementary particles, but science technology at this moment is not advanced enough.

- from the sub-atomic particles, we can zoom out, to atoms, zoom out to molecues, zoom out to the matter we see everyday, zoom out to planets, zoom out to galaxies, zoom out to universe, and I have no reason to believe we cannot zoom out further into super universe, or super super universe or something but again, it's so big and beyond our existing science technology.

So, as you can see, right off my mind I can tell you how ancient our human species are. What we know, is possibly only 0.0001% of whatever knowledge there is not just in this universe, but beyond this universe, possibly beyond a multi-verse.

So yes, there is plenty of place left for a God in this world despite all the science advances we made so far. And there is a reason why physicists don't want to believe in God, because they worry about an inference with their work. But trust me, I can easily ask a few questions and no physicists in the world can ever provide me a good answer, so if they don't know the answer, why should I have to trust them that there is no God when their understanding of the world is so limited?

sinweiy SG

1. On what basis do you say that the universe came about just like our dreams?

3. Which comes back to the question, does the universe have a cause? In my view, it is the height of irrationality to say that nothing caused the universe to exist.

due to an universal concept of impermanence/change. life is like an on going show; rebirth. one life can be this, the next be another. hence that say life is like a dream. it's this infinity that there's no end nor beginning in samsara. but one can get out of this infinity rebirth by practicing the dharma.

we believed that we all have the same Mind as "god" and we all can be Equal to 'God'. we are democracy, not imperialism. both the wave and the ocean have the same water element.

here in the link is our cosmology of "beginning" sort of. see and read the texts from

Chapter One

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/425491

Unlike the units of mind and units of abstract elements, which are permanent since time without beginning, all substances, big or small, are created by the mind, and therefore subject to change and impermanence

BroInChrist SG

we believed that we all have the same Mind as "god" and we all can be Equal to 'God'. we are democracy, not imperialism. both the wave and the ocean have the same water element.

here in the link is our cosmology of "beginning" sort of. see and read the texts from

Chapter One

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/425491

1. To say that life is like a dream or is like "X" or "Y" is not the same as saying that life is a dream. One's preference is liken one thing to another is not the same as stating that X is Y. Since there is life and death, the question to ask is, what is the origin of life? I trust you can see why this question keep cropping up.

2. What do you mean by "God" in saying we can be equal to God? I am sure it does not have the same meaning of God as in the Bible.

3. Thanks for you link. I always find the Buddhist idea of deconstruction rather interesting, be it a cracker in the hand or the chair or the car. To me, the issue is not that you can tear a car apart until you have all the parts and no car. It's a matter of common sense to me that at time X you have a car but at time Y after you have dismantled it that you have no car. The car existed at time X but not at time Y. You can drive the car at time X but not at time Y. But why would all this be interesting at all? To me, what would be interesting would be to note that the car did not come into existence by itself. It required intelligence to put parts together. Any bloke with half an intelligence can tear a car apart, but not anyone can put a car together that works! The question is to account for the existence of the car, the human, or even the universe for that matter. That brings us back to the question of origins.

sinweiy SG

2. What do you mean by "God" in saying we can be equal to God? I am sure it does not have the same meaning of God as in the Bible.

i do say life is like a dream, and never say life IS a dream. life is what we need to cope with given that it's there, but the nature of it is like a dream, so that we do not attached to life so strongly and suffer from it. i keep stressing that we are not nihilist (nor eternalist) and u keep saying we are nihilist.

why we stress on detachment is like the monkey trap. yeah i like to use "like".

there is a device known as a monkey trap. It is a simple box made of open wooden slats. A banana is placed inside the box, and it is clearly visibly through the open slats. There is a hole in the box just large enough for a monkey’s open hand to reach through. Once the monkey has a grip on the banana, the trap is sprung: the monkey now finds the hole is too small for a closed fist clutching a banana to pass back out again.

There is actually nothing holding the monkey in the trap — except for its attachment to the banana. The monkey will stand there, one arm in the box firmly clutching the banana, for hours, even days. The monkey will remain there until the trappers return to bag the poor distressed creature, easily, for the monkey will not relinquish its grip on the banana.

Before you laugh too hard at the monkey’s behavior, consider that all human beings have much in common with both the monkey, as well as the trap.

if u cannot understand the cracker part, skip it, and go to the cosmo part that states how we view the origin of universe/existence.

BroInChrist SG

why we stress on detachment is like the monkey trap. yeah i like to use "like".

if u cannot understand the cracker part, skip it, and go to the cosmo part that states how we view the origin/genesis of life.

Which then begs the question, is the nature of life like a dream? Nihilism is the belief that life is meaningless and without purpose. I don't think this characterise Buddhists. The monkey trap is interesting but flawed. The monkey is real, the trap is real, the banana is real. The trap, BTW, is an intelligent piece of work. It preys on the monkey's instincts for food. Anyway, if the monkey decides to let go of the banana and escapes from his potential captors, what then? It only misses out on the banana and can go eat something else to meet its hunger.

The article on cosmos defines cosmos differently. Cosmos is synonymous with universe, so how does it make sense to speak of many universes in the cosmos? There is only one universe, one cosmos. The article also did not explain anything about origins, it simply assumes the universe/cosmos existed eternally as a brute fact.

sinweiy SG

aiya, it is just empty space, existed eternally. which/who ever, the "creator" still dwell in a space/somewhere. that somewhere existed eternally is a fact.
btw if got "creator", then who's the creator of creator? and the creator of creator of creator etc? there's no end to it. for us the Mind existed beginnless time.

the trap is samsara, is suffering, which ever god(s) or heaven realms are still within it. Buddha only found a way to escape this samsara of suffering and endless reincarnations/life. if one still want to play along in samsaric heaven, it's ok. but when one is tired of all this "shows" drama or "dream", Dharma (to let go) is the way out. Buddha woke up from this dream and became the Awakened One. Nirvana is the Ultimate peace and Ultimate bliss in Buddhism that Buddha found.

haha, there's a saying in Buddhism that one is pointing finger at the moon, and the other person keep looking at the finger and keep missing the moon.

reborn76 SG

《华严经》讲，世出世间一切法，“唯心所现，唯识所变

I think what Sinweiy is trying to pinpoint is Consciousness. It is like an artist trying to paint a picture on an empty paper. Prior to painting there is nothing, but as the artist paint it transfer the image from his consciousness onto the paper.

Just look at the forex, how the economic outlook and professional comment affect the investor in investing in a more profitable currency. It is a mass consciousness or perception at work. It can cause the currency rate to shoot up or declined.

As for SG adult comment on “million of people still goes to church..” Well I agreed with u, but do you know most westerner go to church to attend ceremony than for prayer. I’ m staying in OZ, most of my Ang Mo colleague couldn’t care less to go unless it is Christmas (which I also attend), wedding or relative baptism. Church is a social gathering ground.

Remember how Galileo was persecuted by the Church for believing that the Earth revolve around the Sun. How can one based one faith on a book which was not written as a science text book but for faith inspiration. I think BBC has done a couple of documentary on Bible. Perhaps one can get hold of it, so that one can develope a balance view. Oh Bishop Shelby Sponge and Joseph Campbell are some of the more balance writer which I find inspiring

BroInChrist SG

haha, there's a saying in Buddhism that one is pointing finger at the moon, and the other person keep looking at the finger and keep missing the moon.

1. The universe (cosmos) we live in did not exist eternally, it had a beginning. The universe (time, space, matter) is created by God, who is Spirit, and thus God is not contained in the universe. God does not exist in space. Where God dwells in the eternal realms is a wholly different dimension from the universe.

2. The often-asked question "Who created God?" is an incoherent and meaningless question once you understand the nature of God. Just like the question "Who is the bachelor's wife?" once you understand what the word bachelor means.

3. You speak of the Mind that existed eternally. I would be most glad to tell you that this Mind is what Christians refer to as God. Design in the universe comes only from a Mind. Only a Person can have a Mind. Only Mind can make decisions, moral judgments, act etc.

4. What is the origins of samsara? I think that has not been answered. If infinite time has passed, then all should have escaped samsara by now. If this is not so, then the idea of infinity time past is incoherent.

5. The point about the finger and the moon. I take it to mean that you say I keep looking at the finger and not the moon. I would say that your explanation of the moon is not correct. You see, we all have the same facts which we try to make sense of through worldviews. Our worldviews help us interpret what we see. Everyone has a worldview. Worldview colours everything. But not all worldviews can be true at the same time in the same sense.

BroInChrist SG

《华严经》讲，世出世间一切法，“唯心所现，唯识所变

1. Then it is this Consciousness or Mind which I believe is better identified as the eternal God who is uncaused and independent of all things.

2. Yes, many Christians "go to church" in the West as a cultural thing to do. They can be called nominal Christians. But such people can also be found in all religions, includng Buddhism. So I don't see much in this point to make of.

3. The Galileo affair has been much misunderstood. It was more church politics than about the Bible. Galileo was a believer in God throughout his life. And if you base your faith in a science text book, your faith will keep changing because science is changing. Our faith in the Bible is because it is God's Word, not because it is a science book, which it certainly is not.

4. BBC has done many documentaries about the Christian faith, but the question is whether it has done justice to the Christian faith in such documentaries. Sponge and Campbell are liberals who play fast and loose with the Scriptures. I won't listen to them or treat them as people who hold to the truth. People who are informed on the Bible will disagree with both of them. See http://creation.com/whats-wrong-with-bishop-spong