One can't prove that God but science makes God unnecessary

last SG · 2013-01-24T10:27:08+00:00

So were you taught or equipped to handle questions asked about the Christian faith? When you had questions how did you deal with them? like said, long forgot...

BroInChrist SG

Actually the correct way to say it is that man evolved from a common ancestor to the apes. We just branched off into a separate species at a certain point in time. So asking why there are still apes around if we evolved "from them" is actually a wrong question.

Which begs the question, did man evolve from a common ancestor to the apes? You can't just assume the truth of the very thing in question.

BroInChrist SG

I see. Neanderthal is man-like but they are not human, there are clearly distinguishing features between human (as in homo sapiens) and the neanderthals. Neanderthals share a common ancestry with the homo sapiens, but the neanderthals died out later. Either way, Neanderthals have never been considered 'human ancestors'... they are a different evolutionary branch from the Homo Erectus. Neanderthals are however considered to be as or in fact slightly more intelligent than the homo sapiens (they have slightly larger brains than us).

I read one article some time ago, here's something about why they disappeared from the face of Earth, part of their decline is because "the base of the Neanderthal tongue was positioned higher in the throat, crowding the mouth somewhat. As a result, Neanderthal speech would most likely have been slow-paced and nasalized. "... ..."although Neanderthals did have the ability to speak, they were capable of articulating only a smaller number of phonemes. Jared Diamond described this limitation using the following example: imagine how many words you could say if the only sounds you were able to make were a, u, c, p. Imagine trying to say "Trinity College is a fine place to work." All you could say were something like "Capupa Cappap up a cap capupap." (also see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o589CAu73UM)

And also there is a curious fact that some European and Asian races (not all) have a few percentage (1 to 4) of Neaderthal DNA in them due to cross-mixing tens of thousands of years ago. Chinese is included in those races so I'm probably a bit neanderthal and mostly homo sapien myself.

See http://news.softpedia.com/news/Neanderthals-were-too-smart-to-survive-15264.shtml

You said that Neanderthals were NEVER considered as human ancestors. I think you are wrong. The first Neandertal was reconstructed as a “missing link" by famous paleontologist Marcellin Boule (1861–1942). He was called Homo neanderthalensis, implying a primitive evolutionary link to modern man, Homo sapiens.

BroInChrist SG

quite in the middle of farfetched, i mean how come species b stopped evolving while species a continue to evolve. then more dinosaurs species should be around. and another problem i consider quite strange is we should be seeing many or some of the middle species(missing linkS) still around instead of such a big gap between species. like species A and B should have a smoother transition of species still around, not only man but animal too.

what i know from a documentry is that the time when Lucy first appeared and the time apes first appeared is too close apart for it to evolve. say u need at least x million of years to evolve for A to B, but the time is less than x.

In short, where are the transitional fossils? There should be lots and lots of them. But what we have are only bits and pieces, and with lots of artistic imagination you can turn an ape into a more manlike looking illustration.

sinweiy SG

In short, where are the transitional fossils? There should be lots and lots of them. ..

yeah, indeed a good point! even now mating of two totally different species to produce a new species is out of the question, i think. u cannot mate a cat and a dog. they think that the split happen long time ago. but i think even now we cannot produce a "real" split....the example of the mule that is the product of horse and donkey is just like european human marrying an asian to produce an eurasian. as their geno are similar. in short u cannot mix/mate two different geno. not now, then not before too(?). hmm.

in term of mutation like example when a species no longer needed their tail in their living, and through time, they become shorter is ok with me.

An Eternal Now SG

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger

An Eternal Now SG

You can't mate a cat and dog because they are too far apart genetically but you can mate two different species of the feline family such as tigers and lions.

An Eternal Now SG

A real scientist is someone who makes statement based on tested and proven scientific research findings. Not based on one's beliefs and myths. Evolution is based on science, not beliefs and myths.

sinweiy SG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2_6cqa2cP4

45billion yrs compress into 24 hrs.

quite a few of suddenly appear. the Eukaryotic cells reminded me of

When a unit of mind gathers more units of abstract elements and forms an animate matter, it will find out that it is easier to sustain itself by eating other smaller animate matters instead of gathering and processing units of abstract element by itself. By this experience, it becomes lazy and greedy. When a specie of animate matter or living beings becomes more intelligent and more cunning, a lot of other smaller beings will be killed.

For the sake of food, there are always battles between the lower and the higher beings. The higher beings eat the lower beings and the lowest beings like the virus in turn attack the higher beings in their own battlefields, i.e. the bodies. (See Chart 2). The battles become extremely fierce when food is scarce. At one time there are more higher beings and at another time, there are more lower beings. (See Chart 3).

Killing generates bad kamma. The lower beings do not know killing is bad as it is for their survival; their bad kamma is slight. But for an intelligent being, like a human being, knowing killing is inflicting suffering, the action of killing will bring him down to one of the lower levels of existence. After suffering the bad effects, he will come up again to one of the higher levels again. Due to this killing and other defilements, a unit of mind will forever be existing up and down in different levels of existence until one day it dawns on it that killing is bad and that he must work hard in doing good and eradicating all defilements. It then climbs to the summit with purities and wisdom and will not gather or cling to matters, physical or mental. It will stay on the top and will never descend to the lower levels again.

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/425491

narration quote: "..animal life Suddenly erupt in an explosion of inventiveness...plant begin to appear follow by land mammals....first wing insects appear...retiles dominates ...dinosaurs suddenly vanish..." within few "minutes" apes split to old world monkeys....before midnight human emerge.

seems like they are more into chicken come first. lol. i am more into rebirth as a transition between two life forms and the agreement of mutation of geno, which could be the result of karma i think.

sinweiy SG

Let's say there's this species of animal we call "A" that lived 10 million years ago. Over the years this species slowly changed and 5 million years ago groups of them eventually differ from each other enough that you can no longer call them species A any more, and thus we have species b and c and maybe even d.

We can't say that b evolved from c and then ask how come there's still c around because they're totally seperate species, but we can say that they share a common ancestor named "a".

now i get it. after reading

Missing Links by Gregory Koukl

http://www.str.org/site/News2?id=5451

First I need to clear up a common misconception among creationists. This misconception causes them to say things that are foolish, frankly. The misconception is this: Man evolved from apes. Evolution does not teach that man evolved from apes, it teaches that man and apes have a common ancestor. Apes are pongids; men are hominids, in other words, two-legged primates that walk upright. The search for the missing link is the search for this man-like or hominoid ancestor that is a precursor to both modern apes and modern human beings. In other words, where is the transitional form, the fork so to speak, where apes and man went off in different directions and that links man to an earlier precursor. This is the missing link that is spoken of.

it's interesting to see new species found

http://species.asu.edu/Top10

no transition link , just apeared or inter-breeding?

BroInChrist SG

then again, originally we are Buddha, there's no up (non down).

This is where I find that it is incoherent, if we were all originally Buddha that would mean an enlightened stage to begin with, or Nirvana. So how come the downward evolution to ignorance?

BroInChrist SG

:)

By the way a month ago I wanted to find out what Ven Hui Lu thought about evolution... and I searched very long, finally found it.

Then very funny.... just nice I click "Play" on the Ven Hui Lu DVD passed to me then instantly is talking about that exact part.

http://blog.fo.ifeng.com/article/14407657.html

【齐含万象。】

这个森罗万象就是一法所包容，就是性空，当体就是空。简单讲：森罗万象；诸位！佛陀讲的空的思想有几个层面，有几个层面：第一层就是因为生灭，刹那生灭，所以，佛陀讲空；因为是缘起、条件所构成的，所以，佛陀讲空；因为是无常法，万法都是无常法，所以，佛陀讲空。所以，空有很深的含义，空有很深的含义。简单讲：空就是透视相的不实在性；空就是透视相的没有永恒性；空就是透视相上的无常性；空就是透视相的刹那变化性。所以，佛陀告诉我们：微细的变化，本身就是一种苦。这一句话，很有智慧的人才能讲出。微细的变化，其实是一种苦，这是佛陀在《阿含经》讲的。你注意观察这个天地万物，山也会变高，因为板块的运动。所以，这个山，有的山每年都在长高，每年都在长高，每年都在长高……对不对？每年都在长高。地球它有板块运动，譬如说菲律宾板块、欧亚板块等等这些板块运动，所以，推挤的能量，山就会变高。有一个徒弟问说：师父！那陆地到底怎么来的？我说：陆地就是火山喷出来的，碰到海水凝结，它就一直喷一直喷。所以，包括现在的夏威夷，夏威夷Hawaii 它每一年喷出来的岩浆，碰到海水，冷却了，又增加了土地。所以，我们现在的这个土地，其实就是由地壳变动来的、火山喷出来的，冷却下来的，经过几亿年的风化，变成了土壤，就是这样来的。大海的生命怎么来的？大海的生命，里面的生物是怎么来？就是因为大海、这个海水冲刷了岩石，这个岩石里面有氨基酸、有蛋白质、有生命的基本元素；碳、氢、钙、铁、氨基酸、蛋白质。所以，海水冲刷了这个矿物，变成矿物质，变成了氨基酸、蛋白质，阳光一照射的时候，因缘具足，刹那之间变成了生物，微生物，生命就是这样来的。

所以，有一个人看了佛经就说：师父！我看了一本佛经，他说：人是由光音天来的，因为吃到重的东西，所以，飞不起来，因此就留在地球。我这一段实在是看不懂！我说：哎呀！很简单！外太空的陨石夹带着人类身上的元素，撞击到这个地球；撞击到这个地球，四、五十亿年前，没有这个动物、没有这个植物的。这个元素，生命的元素，因缘具足的时候就单细胞，单细胞，那个时候是没有氧的世界。诸位！五十亿年、四十亿年前的天空，看起来完全是火红色，火红色！是为什么？因为是CO2的世界，就是二氧化碳，火红的世界。那么，由一种藻类分，一直排出来制造这个氧，制造这个氧……海中的这个藻类制造这个氧，这个氧慢慢地慢慢地气候改变，慢慢这个改变，慢慢这个改变。所以，我们现在看到的天空，为什么是蓝色的呢？因为有O2，因为是充满着氧气，充满着氧气，所以，我们看到的天空是蓝色的，是蓝色的。

Is there an English translation?

An Eternal Now SG

No not really... he basically interpreted it in line with modern scientific understandings I think.

What race are you just wondering? U're from Singapore right?

BroInChrist SG

No not really... he basically interpreted it in line with modern scientific understandings I think.

What race are you just wondering? U're from Singapore right?

I am local Singaporean. Race? Human. Ethnic group is Chinese but my Chinese not that good. Sidetrack a bit. The concept of race has no biological basis at all. Our so-called skin colours aee all different shades of the same pigment called melanin.

BroInChrist SG

in term of mutation like example when a species no longer needed their tail in their living, and through time, they become shorter is ok with me.

I do not believe that cats and dogs split longer. I believe cats have always been cats and dogs have always been dogs. They were created to reproduce after their kind, just like the Bible says. You can mix tiger and lion because they are of the same "cat" kind. I have no problem with mutations at all. Mutations are copy mistakes in DNA. They introduce errors in pre-existing DNA but this does not answer the question of where the DNA comes from.

BroInChrist SG

A real scientist is someone who makes statement based on tested and proven scientific research findings. Not based on one's beliefs and myths. Evolution is based on science, not beliefs and myths.

Pardon me but I think your view above is rather naive and does not entirely reflect reality. I suppose you have never heard of Thomas Kuhn's paradigm of science?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift

And specifically which part of partiples-to-man evolution is based on science?

BroInChrist SG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2_6cqa2cP4

45billion yrs compress into 24 hrs.

quite a few of suddenly appear. the Eukaryotic cells reminded me of

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/425491

seems like they are more into chicken come first. lol. i am more into rebirth as a transition between two life forms and the agreement of mutation of geno, which could be the result of karma i think.

Note that the magic words used by evolution scientists are "appear, arise" but they do not explain the mechanisms as to how. Such words simply gloss over the insurmountable obstacles from nonliving matter to living things, from simple cells to complex organisms. Time, being the hero of the plot, is simply credited with the powers to do the impossible, given enough time.

sinweiy SG

This is where I find that it is incoherent, if we were all originally Buddha that would mean an enlightened stage to begin with, or Nirvana. So how come the downward evolution to ignorance?

in the Shurangama sutra, it's states that

知见立知见 to establish knowing on top of knowing，即无明本 is the root cause of not knowing/ignorance；知见无知见 Knowingness without knowingness，斯即涅槃 is the cause of Nirvana，无漏真净 without overflow is true pureness.

Not knowing and enlightenment complement each other. so we are like lost Buddhas, who had forgotten the way only.

when enlightened Master Hui Neng left the world, he said:-

"When one realised one's True Nature, then all sentient beings are Buddhas. But if one looses one's True Nature, then all Buddhas are sentient beings." – Hui Neng

Buddhas and sentient beings are a totality. Buddha can be like the Moon while the reflections of the moon on the water Everywhere is like sentient beings. Both are totality. so there's neither saying of second, as the reflections are from the moon. no up down ward in the perspective of Buddhahood.

or imagine a tree with all the leaves growing from nothing to something then it fall off and disappear. then new leaves start to grow again. u can say leaves appearing are sentient being come about and falling/disappearing of the leaves are sentient beings attaining Buddhahood, given that we have stretched time to the life span of a leaf. new leaves will keep coming, and old leaves with keep falling. within a cycle, there's also a forward motion of an end, yet not so much of an end. everything return to an emptiness truth. and The tree itself is the truth of dharmakaya.

ditto.

universe is amazing, when u can find truth/quality in some thing small, u can find truth/quality in something big, its part of 'logic' or quantum physic.

sinweiy SG

in line, i kind of see a Parallel line, if u cannot join the two line now, u can't join them way back then. (unless there's a "break" in terms of rebirth, then man can be any kind of animal, etc and vise verse.)

in Buddhism, it's like peeling an onion, peel to the end, empty. so Buddha say don't ask too much, where what why about the origin of universe etc. one disciple who had great powers also want to find out how big is the universe, but flew and flew but never can he find the edge! Buddha said that we are like a person who is shot by a poison arrow, keep wanting to look for the culprit. u don't want to look for a cure, u go and look for the culprit! by then it's too late.

BroInChrist SG

in the Shurangama sutra, it's states that

Not knowing and enlightenment complement each other. so we are like lost Buddhas, who had forgotten the way only.

when enlightened Master Hui Neng left the world, he said:-

"When one realised one's True Nature, then all sentient beings are Buddhas. But if one looses one's True Nature, then all Buddhas are sentient beings." – Hui Neng

ditto.

universe is amazing, when u can find truth/quality in some thing small, u can find truth/quality in something big, its part of 'logic' or quantum physic.

1. The sutra you cited, can you explain more? The idea of a lost Buddha is IMO an oxymoron.

2. The quotation by Hui Neng is interesting. Can you explain further what is true nature and how it can be lost?

3. Re the tree analogy. Programmed in the DNA of every seed-bearing tree is the ability fo the seed to grow into a full blown tree. Trees shed their leaves in season. See http://creation.com/autumn-leaves-fall-by-design It is ironic that you would use something that is evidence of design but yet failed to acknowledge the existence of the Designer, and even think fit that the Creator should be consigned to irrelevance.

4. Yes, the universe IS amazing! I can fully agree with that. It reflects the omnipotence and omniscience of the Creator. And yes, one can also use the earthly things to illustrate spiritual truths, the Bible does that many times.

BroInChrist SG

I think the point is that what we know in empirical science agrees with what the Bible has already stated i.e. living things reproduce after their kind. Or put it in another way, if we start with the Bible, and then use the information God provided us to look at the world, we would expect to see living things reproduce after their kind, and that's exactly what we see!

I find the Buddhist notion of "don't ask too much" problematic and ironic seeing that it is about being enlightened and dispelling ignorane. I suppose it wouldn't be wrong to say that Buddhism would be considered a science-stopper since much have been invested to examine and unravel the origins of the universe.

Re the poison arrow analogy again. It would be fallacious to argue that either you look for the cure or you look for the culprit. I would say why not do both? Depending on the circumstances, I would suggest that you get yourself cured, and go find that culprit and bring him to justice.

« Previous Page Next Page »