What is God? What is Buddha?

last SG · 2013-02-24T22:15:17+00:00

1. The cup could just as well be full with you, isn't it? I mean, those allegations about me not listening or not could just as well be applied back to you....

zeus29 SG

for us Buddhism(not linking so much with PL school), we can work hard and pay for our own ticket! we are not worthless beings.

this form of unfairness, imperialism ideal is unlike the fair, equal, democracy Buddhism.

Nicely put.

BroInChrist SG

that's kind of a good analogy! in Pureland Buddhism, we are like stuck in a mud pool and Amitabha hold out his hand to us. one can either get out by themselves or if we really want to get out faster u can hold his hand and by His great compassionate vow, He will pull us out to safety first.

Did this Pure Land teaching originate from the Buddha himself?

BroInChrist SG

u didn't understand his analogy?

"But if you want to watch it you have to come get the tickets"

for us Buddhism(not linking so much with PL school), we can work hard and pay for our own ticket! we are not worthless beings.

this form of unfairness, imperialism ideal is unlike the fair, equal, democracy Buddhism.

However, "There's nothing you can do to buy the ticket or obtain it by any means." ..do have it's ground in Pureland Buddhism. :)

Why would you think that to offer man salvation by grace is tantamount to implying that man is a worthless being? When it has already been stated that the ticket cannot be earned why do you insist on working for it? Is it one's pride and ego at work to humbly admit that a gift cannot be earned, otherwise it is not called a gift?

BroInChrist SG

Since "His death was to atone for the sins of the whole world. It was done, which was why He could say, "It is finished." And "payment for our sins" , do we still have sin or not? If no more, why not transform back to paradise millenias ago?

We are free from the power of sin but not from the presence of sin. But we will be free from the presence of sin when Judgement Day comes and God put all things right.

BroInChrist SG

Since the movie has been paid for all, why the need for ticket? do you mean to say that space is limited and people can't go to the free-for-all movie without the ticke even if they travel all the way to go watch a free-for-all movie? i'm trust you can read between the lines and know what i mean.

You are stretching the analogy. Ok, even if there is no ticket to hand out, you still need to go to the cinema in good faith to watch it. That is faith at work. Heaven is not limited but the time to make a decision for God is.

BroInChrist SG

Well this is very interesting this thread and I would refrain from making conclusions that will upset any parties. That's why I will revert back to the original teaching which is the fact that all religions, whether it is Buddhism, Christianity and so forth is suppose to transform us. To make us better individuals and kinder too.

Personally, I prefer Buddhism, not because I am a pracititioner alone but because it has a very well-developed understanding of the mind and the development of compassion and wisdom. It is very thorough because the Buddha himself gained full enlightenment and through his state gained full understanding and mastery over his mind. That is why I I take refuge in the 3 Jewels beginning with the Buddha.

I do not think the choice of religion is a matter of personal preference. In any case, you may not be aware that Christianity also has deep philosophical thinkers. All thinking that is on the right track must start with the knowledge of God.

zeus29 SG

We are free from the power of sin but not from the presence of sin. But we will be free from the presence of sin when Judgement Day comes and God put all things right.

"free from power of sin"? really? what about murderers who continue to murder, cheaters continue to cheat, rapers continue to rape? looks like the endless cycle of sin to me.

so anyone can go to the cinema, right? so, it's non-exclusive just like the noble path, right?

"the time to make a decision for God is." -> huh?? so god is bound by time. this makes perfect sense since devas too are subject to kalpas. excellent example!!

BroInChrist SG

"free from power of sin"? really? what about murderers who continue to murder, cheaters continue to cheat, rapers continue to rape? looks like the endless cycle of sin to me.

so anyone can go to the cinema, right? so, it's non-exclusive just like the noble path, right?

"the time to make a decision for God is." -> huh?? so god is bound by time. this makes perfect sense since devas too are subject to kalpas. excellent example!!

If you insist on stretching the analogy, then I will go along with it albeit reluctantly to say that those who continue to murder and rape will not want to go for the movie at all. They prefer the worldly and lustful pleasures of this life. And it seems that you may have the wrong idea that the movie is never going to start playing! The time will come when the entrance is shut tight and the movie starts. It will be too late if you are left out. But blessed are they who are already seated when the curtains are drawn back.

zeus29 SG

I think "you have the wrong idea". The murderers etc was in reference to "free from power of sin". Kindly reread when in doubt.

so anyone can go to the cinema, right? so, it's non-exclusive just like the noble path, right? => refers to your reply of no ticket is required.

Also, "the time to make a decision for God is." -> huh?? so god is bound by time. this makes perfect sense since devas too are subject to kalpas. excellent example!!

"shut tight and left out", god can't reopen the doors with his might?

BroInChrist SG

I think "you have the wrong idea". The murderers etc was in reference to "free from power of sin". Kindly reread when in doubt.

so anyone can go to the cinema, right? so, it's non-exclusive just like the noble path, right? => refers to your reply of no ticket is required.

Also, "the time to make a decision for God is." -> huh?? so god is bound by time. this makes perfect sense since devas too are subject to kalpas. excellent example!!

You are not reading properly. I did not say that God is bound by time. I said that the time to make a decision for God is not forever. Which is why the Bible says that NOW is the time of salvation.

zeus29 SG

You are not reading properly. I did not say that God is bound by time. I said that the time to make a decision for God is not forever. Which is why the Bible says that NOW is the time of salvation.

Err, didn't you just said "Heaven is not limited but the time to make a decision for God is."?

Which means he too has to comply with time just like the deva realm is not permanent. Why not forever since he's almighty? And why not keep the gates open forever?

following the thread, I'm left with more questions.

Since our sins have been paid millenias ago, why aren't we back in Eden?

Since we are free from the power of sin, we shouldn't be sinning. Sadly, no.

Since our sins have been paid, everyone should be going to heaven regardless of one's faith and since having erroneous faith is sin against god but that too has been paid.

sinweiy SG

Did this Pure Land teaching originate from the Buddha himself?

Yes. though mostly from Mayahana; Amitabha Sutra, Infinity Light/Life Sutra. Visualisation Sutra etc.

sinweiy SG

that said keep giving fishes/food to a fisherman who don't make their own effort to earn their own living, is not really helping but also make them more lazy. it's better to Teach them how to fish. after Enlightenment, Buddha taught for 45 years. (also on going in other world)

the different here is one always sit below god, and will never be Equal to god. in Buddha's time, He strongly oppose to slavery. He took in slave as his disciple without discrimination. He told them that they are No different from him!

Steveyboy SG

@BroInChrist - One thing is for sure, you do have an indomitable spirit to spread the Gospel I must say. Even when you are unable to convince, you continue to express your beliefs. Unfortunately, Buddhists who know the teachings tend to be the intellectual types that need a religion that answers more questions. You see, Christianity works better when you just believe and don't ask too much questions. While in Buddhism, it works better when you ask more questions as we achieve a better understanding. Now, I know that you will argue with these points and I just wanted to share my understanding and experiences in both religions.

BroInChrist SG

Err, didn't you just said "Heaven is not limited but the time to make a decision for God is."?

Which means he too has to comply with time just like the deva realm is not permanent. Why not forever since he's almighty? And why not keep the gates open forever?

following the thread, I'm left with more questions.

Since our sins have been paid millenias ago, why aren't we back in Eden?

Since we are free from the power of sin, we shouldn't be sinning. Sadly, no.

Since our sins have been paid, everyone should be going to heaven regardless of one's faith and since having erroneous faith is sin against god but that too has been paid.

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that God has to comply with time. God is the creator of time. He decides when to start the movie, so to speak. Asking God to keep the gates open forever basically means the movie never gets to start, that would be rather absurd demand. And why keep the gates open forever?

Now to address your questions:

1. Why aren't we back in Eden? It's a matter of timing. The Bible teaches a time when the lamb would lie with the lion. Sounds Edenic doesn't it? Anyway, if you read Revelation the Bible talks about the saints who would dwell in a place where the Tree of Life is in abundant all the time!

2. Free from the power of sin means that the the second death cannot touch believers. In other words, believers will not be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is reserved for the devil and his demons and those who rebel against God and refuse His offer of salvation in Jesus Christ. It does not mean that believers are incapable of sin. Again the Bible does not teach this, so this is your false idea.

3. You are promoting the false idea of universalism which has been denounced as heresy. Sad to say, many Christians are promoting this idea too. The Bible teaches that salvation has been freely offered to all, Christ died for everyone. But the Bible also teaches that not everyone wants to take up the offer. God is not going to force the gift on you if you so insist on refusing it. Or would you prefer that God drag you screaming and shouting into heaven against your will? That would be hell for you, wouldn't it? And I thought most people do not like to be imposed upon?

BroInChrist SG

Yes. though mostly from Mayahana; Amitabha Sutra, Infinity Light/Life Sutra. Visualisation Sutra etc.

OK, do you have specific speeches by the Buddha himself? Something similar to the Chapter and Verse that Christians normally quote to show that the Bible teaches certain things?

BroInChrist SG

The fallacy here is that you think salvation is likened to a skill that can be learned, like fishing. The point of the Bible is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to earn your way to heaven. One has to be morally PERFECT to merit a place in heaven and no one is in that category. Measured against God's commandments we all fail miserably.

Why would it cause offence to acknowledge that the Creator is above His creation? It is a fact to be acknowledged, not rebelled against. Jesus also told His disciples that He called them His friends, even though He is their rightful Lord and Master. Jesus never discriminated against anyone either.

BroInChrist SG

I don't know how you get the idea that Christianity works better when you just believe and don't ask much questions. I mean, even in Buddhism you are taught not to ask questions about whether there is a Creator God! If you entertain the view that Christianity frowns upon asking questions, then sorry to say that is your caricature of the Christian faith. Just take me for example, have you heard me telling you and fellow Buddhists not to ask too much questions about Christianity? Nope, I actually welcome them. Websites like www.gotquestions.org and creation.com have answers to hundreds and hundreds of questions. Does that sound like Christianity is all about believing and not asking questions?

zeus29 SG

i don't see how you not see that god has to comply with time given your earlier replies. anyone else sees the inconsistency and paradox?

"Asking God to keep the gates open forever basically means the movie never gets to start" -> so you're saying his awesome power that works in mysterious ways is as defined by you? and limited by your knowledge?

"absurd demand" -> what's not absurb demand?

"why keep gates open" -> why not? for the love of his children? won't you for your kids?

Now to address your questions:

didn't you say god created time? why the timing? why not reset back to original paradise when sin has been erased?

second death? eeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........................

and "Free from the power of sin means that the the second death cannot touch believers. " -> death is sin?

"Lake of Fire which is reserved for the devil and his demons " -> so, no salvation for the devil? no turning over a new leaf? I much prefer our buddhist compassion. Isn't devil too created by god?

"and those who rebel and refuse the offer" -> so those who refuse get punished? there are plenty of free events out there, are you punished for not going to them? what kind of evil is this?

hey broinchrist, guess what? You didn't ask for it but I cooked for you a super spicy vindaloo. Come eat as much as you want. If you don't eat, I'll throw it at your face and let the pepper in the curry will blind you for the rest of your life.

"It does not mean that believers are incapable of sin. Again the Bible does not teach this, so this is your false idea. Again the Bible does not teach this, so this is your false idea." -> free from power of sin yet can sin? MEGA HUHHHHH??? Do you mean free from effects of sin? Since free from effects of sin which include the sin of betraying god and eating the forbidden fruit, why not back in Eden? which you then said it's due to timing but you said god created time but then god has to wait but have limited time for decision which I then said god too has to comply with time which you disagree. Pretty confusing isn't it? So which is true? He has power over time or not? Why wait? Why continue to see people suffer?

"false idea of universalism which has been denounced as heresy." -> so, you decide? isn't wrong faith sin against god and all have already been paid by jesus? so what's happening? i'm more confused that ever. was jesus able to pay for our sins or not? do you mean jesus is only able to pay for sins up to his crucification? but that too included sin from adam. again above question, why not reset back to paradise? or does god still hold grudges against mankind even though all sins have been paid?

"Christ died for everyone. But the Bible also teaches that not everyone wants to take up the offer. God is not going to force the gift on you if you so insist on refusing it. Or would you prefer that God drag you screaming and shouting into heaven against your will? -> another MEGA HUH!!!???

let me get this straight. you said jesus died for everyone. god's gift to everyone. god doesn't force people to take up his gift yet those who don't take up his offer will be sent to eternal hell. is that what you're saying? wow. A gift held at ransom!

OK, do you have specific speeches by the Buddha himself? Something similar to the Chapter and Verse that Christians normally quote to show that the Bible teaches certain things?

dude, didn't you see the name of the sutra? do you what know a sutra is? sayings/teachings of the buddha.

"The fallacy here is that you think salvation is likened to a skill that can be learned, like fishing. The point of the Bible is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to earn your way to heaven. " -> according to your perspective. Didn't you study hard to get into uni? The letter of offer just came?

"One has to be morally PERFECT to merit a place in heaven and no one is in that category. " -> so, no one is going to heaven?

"Why would it cause offence to acknowledge that the Creator is above His creation? It is a fact to be acknowledged, not rebelled against." -> what fact and whose fact? a fact has solid grounding. what's yours? if no, it's just a hypothesis or merely a fact to you only.

"Jesus also told His disciples that He called them His friends, even though He is their rightful Lord and Master. Jesus never discriminated against anyone either." -> good.

Thank you for your compliment. I am also aware that there are people with similar indomitable spirit to undermine the Christian faith! Even when their objections have been refuted or neutralised they still continue to press the same old canards. I don't know how you get the idea that Christianity works better when you just believe and don't ask much questions. I mean, even in Buddhism you are taught not to ask questions about whether there is a Creator God! If you entertain the view that Christianity frowns upon asking questions, then sorry to say that is your caricature of the Christian faith. Just take me for example, have you heard me telling you and fellow Buddhists not to ask too much questions about Christianity? Nope, I actually welcome them. Websites like www.gotquestions.org and creation.com have answers to hundreds and hundreds of questions. Does that sound like Christianity is all about believing and not asking questions?

"undermine the Christian faith!" -> where did you get that? do you mean buddhissts? you do know that buddhists are quite apathic, right? i don't think buddhists have ever wage war against another faith, fight a war in the name of faith or actively evangelise others.

"I don't know how you get the idea that Christianity works better when you just believe and don't ask much questions." -> that's his thoughts and his findings. do people tell you how should feel? let's try this. broinchrist, you're hungry now. go eat. eat. eat. as if i know if you actually feel any hunger.

"I mean, even in Buddhism you are taught not to ask questions about whether there is a Creator God!" -> taught not to ask? since when and where? "i think you have the wrong idea" :) you forgot about his apathic answer?

sinweiy SG

OK, do you have specific speeches by the Buddha himself? Something similar to the Chapter and Verse that Christians normally quote to show that the Bible teaches certain things?

Amitabha Sutra is short and directly talking about Amitabha Buddha.

http://www.fodian.net/English/Amitabha_Sutra.htm

Infinity Life Sutra is lot longer.

u may find it interesting that Pureland school emphasis on Faith too. we call it more of a mental State of conviction/Saddha. a Right form of faith.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.038.than.html

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/436563

« Previous Page Next Page »