I replied:
Indeed, the realization of Awareness is important... reminds me of
a reply by Thusness to someone two years ago
"What you described is fine and it can be considered vipassana
meditation too but you must be clear what is the main objective of
practicing that way. Ironically, the real purpose only becomes
obvious after the arising insight of anatta. What I gathered so far
from your descriptions are not so much about anatta or empty nature
of phenomena but are rather drawn towards Awareness practice. So it
will be good to start from understanding what Awareness truly is.
All the method of practices that u mentioned will lead to a quality
of experience that is non-conceptual. You can have non-conceptual
experience of sound, taste...etc...but more importantly in my
opinion, u should start from having a direct, non-conceptual
experience of Awareness (first glimpse of our luminous essence).
Once you have a ‘taste’ of what Awareness is, u can then think of
‘expanding’ this bare awareness and gradually understand what does
‘heightening and expanding’ mean from the perspective of
Awareness.
Next, although you hear and see ‘non-dual, anatta and dependent
origination’ all over the place in An Eternal Now’s forum (the
recent Toni Packer’s books you bought are about non-dual and
anatta), there is nothing wrong being ‘dualistic’ for a start. Even
after direct non-conceptual experience of Awareness, our view will
still continue to be dualistic; so do not have the idea that being
dualistic is bad although it prevents thorough experience of
liberation.
The comment given by Dharma Dan is very insightful but of late, I
realized that it is important to have a first glimpse of our
luminous essence directly before proceeding into such
understanding. Some times understanding something too early will
deny oneself from actual realization as it becomes conceptual. Once
the conceptual understanding is formed, even qualified masters will
find it difficult to lead the practitioner to the actual
‘realization’ as a practitioner mistakes conceptual understanding
for realization."
...
"Vipassana is about being bare in attention, noting and mindful of
the 3 characteristic of phenomena whereas “Experiencing whatever
arises fearlessly and unreservedly” is not vipassana, it is simply
the way I see how practice
should be after the arising insight of anatta and realizing the
empty nature of phenomena.
You can take this “Experiencing whatever arises fearlessly and
unreservedly” as your path of practice and at the same time
contemplate whether a mind that sees things dualistically and
inherently is able to experience phenomena ‘fearlessly, completely
and reservedly’. Practice with this question in mind will also help
you penetrate into non-conceptuality and non-duality."
"Anatta" and "emptiness" is also not to be seen as a "higher stage"
than "realization of Awareness"... it clarifies the nature of
"Awareness" but should not be seen in terms of hierarchy.
As Thusness also said in the correspondence,
"Not to take the 7 phases of insights and experiences as ‘stages’.
It is merely a narration of the journey I have gone through. Phase
6 insight is not necessarily a higher state of insight than phase 1
insight. I think all these 7 phases of insights and experiences are
of equal importance, they complement each other. Some might have
experiential insight of Emptiness first with intensity of luminous
essence coming later."
For example there was a lama who experienced the 7 phases in
reverse order from the way he presented it:
2008
"(Mind has often been likened to a mirror, but the analogy goes
only so far, because mirrors exist and mind doesn't, well let's say
that one can touch mirrors. What existence means, particularly at
these levels, would be a fruitful topic, but one that i will not
cover. Also , mind doesn't really reflect phenomena, it is the
phenomena themselves. This is covered further down in these 4
prajnas, but for clarity i thought i should mention that.
(4:15 PM) AEN:
"Thusness' or "suchness" is what one feels with the experience of
emptiness. It is a solid sense of being (yes, emptiness has a solid
or one could say rich feeling). The luminescence of mind can be
compared the the surface of a mirror. If the mirror is dirty it
doesn't have a bright surface, and if mind is filled with
obscuration its awareness is dimmed. With the experience of
emptiness, phenomena become more vivid. It is said in the post that
this confirms one's entrance into Zen. In the vajrayana, this
vividness of mind is called "osel" in Tibetan, and it is a sign
that one has entered the vajrayana. In my experience, this is quite
far along the path. To get to this point, one would have to
experience egolessness of self, egolessness of other, nondualty,
emptiness, and only then luminosity.)
(4:16 PM) Thusness: very good.
(4:16 PM) AEN: from another thread: "Exist is a tricky word in
Buddhism. Mind does not exist in the sense of being a thing, but it
does exist as well, otherwise how would we be able to see, hear
etc.
Having said that, for an individual, there is nothing "outside of
awareness." Everything that happens to us happens in our
awareness(it's not ours, but so what). Furthermore, we are
literally everything that happens in our awareness. There is no
self; we are simply the world. if we see a chair in our kitchen,
that is what we are at that moment since there is no separation
between phenomena and mind. Phenomena are mind and mind is
phenomena. smile.gif
Tsultrim
(4:22 PM) Thusness: this tsultrim is insight is stage 6.
(4:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:23 PM) Thusness: truly good.
(4:23 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:23 PM) Thusness: not many can truly feel the differences.
(4:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:24 PM) Thusness: it is only until a certain phase of experience
then that clarity comes.
(4:24 PM) Thusness: and often in tremendous in the stability of
thoughtlessness... thought almost seldom arise and one becomes the
full vividness of arising phenomena.
....
(5:26 PM) Thusness: There will come a time when emptiness becomes
so clear and the separation is no more then without the need to
recall or remind. The last veil that separates is like permanently
gone. Then there is no practice because all moments of arising
phenomena is just one practice.
(5:29 PM) AEN:
In a post above, i distinguished between the two. I know you asked
Matylda, but until she replies, if she does, possibly i could be of
help.
Prajna is the tool that sees emptiness. It is actually an expansion
of awareness, using awareness in the context of
mindfulness/awareness. Awareness gets to a point where it discovers
the nature of mind which includes emptiness. At that point,
awareness transforms into prajna. There are lesser stages of prajna
as well, but i would have to review them.
Prajna has been likened to the mother of all the Buddhas, because
through its activity the mind that becomes the Buddha mind is born.
Actually, it has always been there, and is unborn, but let's not
quibble.
(5:29 PM) AEN:
So, prajna sees emptiness. When first seen, however, one feels
emptiness as separate from what has discovered it. There is still a
slight trace of dualism. We experience this dualism as a seeking
for emptinesss ie there is a seeker and something sought. At the
realization of jnana, this duality melts, so to speak, and
emptiness exists or doesn't exist without a sense of something
observing it. Also, one attains wisdom when emptiness arises, not
wisdom about anything, simply being in the state of wisdom. With
prajna, one observes that wisdom; with jnana, one becomes it.
Tsultrim
(5:35 PM) Thusness: jnana here does not refer to the type of
concentration (i.e. jnana = knowledge, not jhana/samadhi) like it
said. It is an effortless non-dual luminous experience due to the
maturing of prajna.
(5:35 PM) Thusness: I have often said clear until absorbed.
Vividness of forms.
(5:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:37 PM) Thusness: It is the outcome of the clarity of insight due
to the dissolve of that tendency to divide. It is natural, not a
form of attention or concentration. This should not be
misunderstood.
(5:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:38 PM) Thusness: He mentioned about luminosity is the last
fruition stage and one must go through emptiness to realise this
stage.
(5:39 PM) Thusness: This is not exactly right.
(5:39 PM) Thusness: Advaita Vedanta practitioner will experience
the opposite.
(5:39 PM) AEN: but for mahamudra it is like that rite?
(no-self/emptiness first, followed by realizing the luminous
essence)
(5:39 PM) AEN: theravada also?
(5:39 PM) AEN: like dharma dan
(5:40 PM) Thusness: yes
(5:40 PM) Thusness: it is because of right view
(5:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:40 PM) Thusness: without the right view, u will experience
luminosity aspect of awareness without knowing its empty
nature.
(5:40 PM) Thusness: that is more dangerous.
(5:41 PM) Thusness: therefore establishment of right view is most
important. Seeds are planted."
........
(12:54 AM) AEN: btw does freawaru know non-dual? u mean he's like
the ken wilber kind of nondual but not anatta?
(12:55 AM) Thusness: he is having glimpses of non-dual like Ken
Wilber.
(12:55 AM) Thusness: It is without the experience of 'I' but still
rest in the Subject.
(12:56 AM) Thusness: U will see stage 4 onwards is all about
resting in transience and nothing on Subject.
(12:57 AM) Thusness: all those practitioners even after non-dual
experience if insight of anatta has not arisen will have the
tendency of towards the stage 3.
(12:58 AM) Thusness: all those practitioners even after non-dual
experience and still sink back to the Subject, will have the
tendency of skewing towards the stage 3.
(12:59 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:59 AM) Thusness: However stages are just appearances, in
tsultrim serri post, it becomes reverse.
(1:00 AM) AEN: oic..
(1:00 AM) Thusness: Therefore the stages are mere appearances like
what i have said in the beginning of the blog.
(1:00 AM) AEN: icic..
(1:00 AM) Thusness: u should not take it as ultimate but mere
guidance for u.