The karma of obstructing ppl practice & slander triple gems

An Eternal Now SG

Yesterday watched video got this passage which is interesting, tells of what happens at death.

Ven Hui Lu:

诸位，在唯识学里面讲：人死了以后，顶圣眼生天，一个做善事的人，又不执着，不希望人家赞叹，又能够坚持念佛的人，临命终，神识一出来，顶部是热的，全身都冷的喔！师父去助念过几百个人，全身都冷的，很奇怪，这顶部很热很热，这个热气就从这里出去。顶圣眼生天，全身都冷的，头顶就是热的，就是非常不可思议！你看，今天科学家发现，我们的神识是遍满全身的；佛在二千五百年前就告诉你：意识本就遍全身的。到最后，意识从这里出去，这里是热的。如果婆罗门教行善，基督教、天主教行善，不念佛，不求生净土的人，往生以后，他这个脸，眼睛是热的，行善，他也会生天啊，他不是上帝救的，他是行善的因果，因果是自然的法则。师父去助念过一个，他老婆拜佛，他有的佛经，统统拿起来撕掉，她穿这个袈裟‥‥‥不是袈裟，海青，他的老婆穿那个海青，用那个剪刀，啪！拜什么佛？拜芭乐佛、拜龙眼佛、拜榴梿佛！就是不让她信佛，他这个老婆，半夜都起来哭，她这个先生在菜市场杀生，杀生，就是卖一些鱼啊‥‥‥他就是不给你吃素，就是不给你拜佛，他的老婆就哭，很难过，她就偷偷摸摸的。

有一次碰到了师父，跪着哭得很惨，因为她很虔诚，我就很感动她，师父啊，那怎么办啊？我说：你要有智慧啊！是不是啊？不要跟他敌对啊，毕竟他是你的老公啊！佛在心中，以后你就顺他，什么都不要跟他敌对，他不喜欢你拜佛，你就默默的念佛，这样也是在念啊，心中。我说：你平常在做什么？她说：我平常没有做什么啊，平常就是洗衣服、煮饭、拖地板啊！我说：很简单！拖地板的时候，拖出去：「阿弥」，拖回来：「陀佛」，阿弥陀佛‥‥‥知道吗？发泄下。不要念那个台语的，拖出去：××，拖回来：娘，××娘‥‥‥骂人家的话，不好！所以，业就是我们的心、无明转变的，我们的心灵，也可以自己转动，不须要任何人。所以，这个居士，我就告诉她，她就这样讲了。

我告诉你喔：后来她的先生死得多惨？每天都谤佛，每天都骂他老婆，佛经烧掉，多惨？她先生往生以后，他的老婆：师父啊，我先生往生了！我电话挂着，我说：哎呀！好，好！反对佛教，终于死掉。好，这个好，死得好。没有啦！电话再拿起来，假装关心一下，内心很舒服，你有什么‥‥‥师父啊，来帮我先生加持啊！因为她很虔诚，我很感动：好！马上就答应，去！全身都发黑，脸像非洲人，我没有看过脸黑到这种程度的，黑到连那个手，整只统统都黑掉，那像我这样漂亮，那怎么可能？这是不可能的。那个黑得‥‥‥后来，我又看他的脚，摸他的脚底，热的！顶圣眼生天，人心，投胎成人，是心最慢冷；饿鬼腹，饿鬼，投胎成饿鬼，肚子最慢冷；傍生膝盖离，畜生就是傍生，膝盖最慢冷；地狱脚板出，地狱啊！

知道吗？地狱就是这个地方，这个地方，脚板，脚板出，他的脚，整只脚都热的。毕竟夫妻是有因缘嘛，好了，她说：师父，那怎么办？我说：这没办法，太严重了！师父就持毗卢遮那佛大灌顶光真言，给他加持，还是不行。后来没办法了，我说：他叫做什么名字？我先跟他办三皈依，叫他要求忏悔，你在世这样谤佛、谤法、谤僧，还阻碍人家修行！好，在佛前祈求，跟他皈依佛、皈依法、皈依僧，在那边，师父也是很虔诚，毕竟是众生啊！是不是啊？我一边鼓掌，可是，一边要救他啊！是不是啊？

救他，好！就救他，一直跟他办皈依。我告诉你：不可思议的事情发生了，他多不可思议呢？你知道吗？那个亡者掉眼泪，死了多久的时间，掉眼泪喔！诸位，你们以前有过谤佛、谤法、谤僧，赶快忏悔啊，不要等到临命终才哭，来不及了！有谤过三宝的，阻碍人家修行的，赶快求忏悔，人家要了生死的，你拼命阻止他，这个不行的！

simpo_ SG

Very interesting.

Thanks for sharing.

Beautiful951 SG

I wonder what is considered slandering the triple gem? Must it be as extreme as described in the above passage?

Also, how does one 忏悔?

sinweiy SG

I wonder what is considered slandering the triple gem? Must it be as extreme as described in the above passage?

Also, how does one 忏悔?

what do u think?

Jui SG

I'm interested to know what happens when people across sects start talking bad about one another. e.g. Thervada against Mahayana.

An Eternal Now SG

I'm interested to know what happens when people across sects start talking bad about one another. e.g. Thervada against Mahayana.

Very bad karma if they are slandering a correct teaching.

An Eternal Now SG

I wonder what is considered slandering the triple gem? Must it be as extreme as described in the above passage?

Also, how does one 忏悔?

Repentance: recite the repentance verse, prostrate in front of the Buddha, stand up again, recite, prostrate [...] do this 108 times or more or less, if possible everyday.

See http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol6no2c.htm

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/446194

Dharmadhatu:

hi jacky,

this is not a translation but i roughly tell u what one part of article is about.

Once, Shen Kai Reverend sent one of his monk disciple to bring a lay disciple to come to his temple immediately, it was an unusual request because the trip back and forth takes several hours and the disciple could have come up the mountain on his own. But it seemed to be due to an urgent matter. When the disciple arrived, Reverend was quite stern (different from his usual amiable self) and asked this lay disciple to think back whether he did anything wrong as the Reverend had summoned him there to help him purify a very serious karma. The lay disciple recalled that once he had come upon a very ragged-looked monk and due to his discrimination, he had given rise to disdain on this ragged monk. He asked the Reverend if this was the matter in question. The Reverend then informed this disciple that the monk he had seen was in fact an Arhat and that his attitude of disdain had created a very serious karma. He then asked the disciple to repent and bow down 108 times...

(There is also another story that was not translated, it was about laughing at a Buddha's statue)

So even disdain, disrespectful laughter, is very bad karma. Be very careful.

sinweiy SG

I wonder what is considered slandering the triple gem? Must it be as extreme as described in the above passage?

Also, how does one 忏悔?

佛法也是心法

u can ask what the heart tell you.

Spnw07 SG

I wonder what is considered slandering the triple gem? Must it be as extreme as described in the above passage?

Also, how does one 忏悔?

Slandering the Triple Gem can be a wide and deep topic by itself. As shown in AEN's example, thoughts of despise can also be considered slander. Teasing the physical appearance or perceived strange behaviour of monks, well-practised layman Buddhists can also be slander.

I would go with what AEN has said about the repentance procedure. However, do take note it is not the verse or the number of times per se that is so important in the repentance practice. It is wholehearted understanding (or very sincere attempt to do so) about what is so undesirable about the thoughts and the act of slander that is more important.

This is supported by certain examples in sutras such as 发起菩萨殊胜志乐经(弥勒菩萨所问经).

尔时，诸菩萨等闻佛所说，举身毛竖，深生忧悔，便自抆泪，前白佛言：“世尊，我今发露悔其过咎。我等常于菩萨乘人，轻慢嫉恚及余业障，今于佛前如罪忏悔。我等今日于世尊前发弘誓愿：

“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若于菩萨乘人，见有违犯举露其过，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若于菩萨乘人，戏弄讥嫌恐惧轻贱，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若见在家、出家菩萨乘人，以五欲乐游戏欢娱，见受用时，终不于彼伺求其过，常生信敬起教师想。若不尔者，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若于菩萨乘人，悭亲友家及诸利养，恼彼身心令其逼迫，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若于菩萨乘人，以一粗言令其不悦，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若于菩萨乘人，昼夜六时不勤礼事，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，为欲护持此弘誓故不惜身命。若不尔者，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若于声闻及辟支佛，以轻慢心，谓于彼等不胜于我，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若不善能摧伏其身，生下劣想，如旃陀罗及于狗犬，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若自赞叹于他毁呰，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若不怖畏斗诤之处，去百由旬如疾风吹，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，若于持戒多闻头陀，少欲知足一切功德，身自炫曜，我等则为欺诳如来。
“世尊，我从今日至未来际，所修善本不自矜伐，所行罪业惭愧发露。若不尔者，我等则为欺诳如来。”

尔时，世尊赞诸菩萨：“善哉！善哉！善男子，善说如是觉悟之法，善发如是广大誓愿！能以如是决定之心，安住其中，一切业障皆悉消灭，无量善根亦当增长。”

Beautiful951 SG

Thank you AEN, Sinweiy and Spnw for your replies. :)

sinweiy SG

to me, you know what's the best, straight forward and logical way to repent for slandering the dharma?

do the opposite of slandering. that mean promote back the Dharma you slander. just like what Vasubandhu did.

VASUBANDHU'S CONVERSION

"Asanga, teacher of the Law [Dharma], saw that his younger brother was endowed with an intelligence surpassing that of others, his knowledge being deep and wide, and himself well-versed in esoteric and exoteric doctrines. He was afraid that the latter might compose a sastra and crush the Mahayana. He was living then in the land of the Hero (Purusa-pura) and sent a messenger to Vasubandhu in Ayodhya with the following message: "I am seriously ill at present. You had better attend to me quickly." Vasubandhu followed the messenger to his native land, saw his brother and inquired what was the cause of his illness. He answered: "I have now a serious disease of the heart, which arose on account of you." Vasubandhu again asked: "Why do you say on account of me?" He answered: "You dot no believe in the Mahayana and are always attacking and discrediting it. For this wickedness you will be sure to sink forever in a miserable Life. I am now grieved and troubled for your sake to such an extent that my life will no long survive. On hearing this Vasubandhu was surprised and alarmed and asked his brother to expound the Mahayana for him. He then gave him a concise explanation of the essential principles of the Mahayana. Thereupon the Teacher of the Law (Vasubandhu), who was possessed of clear intelligence and especially of deep insight, became at once convinced that the truth of the Mahayana excelled even that of the Hinayana.

"He then fully investigated, under his brother, the principles of the Mahayana. Soon after he became as thoroughly acquainted with the whole as his brother was. When its meaning was already clear to him, he would meditate on it. From the beginning to the end everything was perfectly in accordance with the truth, there being nothing contradictory to it. For the first time he realized that the Hinayana was wrong and the Mahayana right. If there were no Mahayana, then (he thought) there would be no path (marga) and no fruition (phala) of the Tri-yana [Three Vehicles]. Since he formerly did harm by speaking ill of the Mahayana, in which he then Bodhisattva Vasubandhu
had no faith, he was now afraid that he might fall into a miserable life on account of that wickedness. He deeply reproached himself and earnestly repented of his previous fault. He approached his brother and confessed his error, saying: 'I now desire to make a confession. I do not know by what means I can be pardoned for my former slander.' He said (further): 'I formerly did harm speaking ill (of the truth) by means of my tongue. I will now cut out my tongue in order to atone for my crime.' His brother answered: 'Even if you cut out your tongue a thousand times, you cannot wipe out your crime. If you really want to wipe out your crime, you must find some other means.' Thereupon he asked his brother to explain the means of wiping out the offence. The latter said: 'Your tongue was able to speak very skillfully and effectively against the Mahayana, and thus discredit it. If you want to wipe out your offence, you must now propound the Mahayana equally skillfully and effectively.'" (The Life of Vasubandhu, J. Takakusu, tr., pp. 290-292) http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/Buddhism/BuddhistDict/BDV.html

that mean what used to be a disbelieve had turn into a strong believe in it. that's already 忏悔!

Spnw07 SG

The method mentioned by sinweiy is indeed logical and practical.

However, when it comes to promoting the Dharma, things are not that simple. Depending on the kind of slander committed, the person in question usually has no strong foundational Dharma knowledge and practice. So when such a person finally recognises and accepts he or she has committed slander and wishes to do concrete acts of repentance, they first need to build a strong foundation in Dharma knowledge and practice before thinking of promoting the Dharma actively. If not, such people may unknowingly commit unskilful acts of misleading or discouraging others in learning the Dharma.

In my opinion (based also on methods implied or directly taught in sutras such as 发起菩萨殊胜志乐经), it is better to consider the following:

1) Direct and sincere confession to any monk or nun (especially those know to be diligent in Dharma practice and are compassionate and skilful in their communication with lay people).

When it is not practical or convenient, a well-practised lay Buddhist or even Buddhas/Bodhisattva images can be considered.

Generally, human to human confession is preferred due to the benefit of direct guidance and the fact that we need human interaction when practising the Dharma.

2) Cultivate and maintain the sincere desire to study and practise the Dharma well for life. Let the Dharma be your guide in recognising and correcting any kind of mistakes made in thoughts, speech and action in your daily life.

When people see that you are making sincere efforts to repent, learn and practise the Dharma well in the immediate and long term, you are already promoting the Dharma.

sinweiy SG

ok, i think promoting Dharma as a whole is promoting Dharma as a whole. but what i am refering when a slander is commited or what b951 refering is when you unknowingly told someone that a particular dharma is wrong, when it's suppose to be right, then to amend that wrong doing, you go back to the person and explain what you say to him/her/them previously is wrong. that's better then reciting any sutra by oneself per se. but if one cannot find them, then no choice.

Spnw07 SG

Hi sinweiy, you wrote 'promote back the Dharma you slander'. I merely expanded on that with direct reference to slander or misrepresentation. Clarifying one's previous misrepresentation of the Dharma is what you meant right? I understood and agreed with that.

If the person affected by one's misrepresentation/slander cannot be found, then measures such as what AEN and I have wrote can be considered. In fact, most of what are being suggested here can be done concurrently. All these can be viewed as a package, not necessarily in isolation.

An Eternal Now SG

Deeply ashamed of his former abuse of the Mahayana, Vasubandhu (one of the fathers of Yogacara) wanted to cut out his tongue, but refrained from doing so when Asanga told him to use it for the cause of Mahayana.

This is a great way of atoning your bad karma of slandering dharma.