Rigpa (wisdom/knowledge) is NOT (deluded) mind

An Eternal Now SG

Asunthatneversets:

True dzogchen is a non-causal vehicle, but some mistake this as advocating that nothing need be done, and that this present afflicted awareness is indeed “it” when it surely isn’t. The master reveals the nature of mind, which is an innate quality (that is why it is non-causal) and then that knowledge must be cultivated (also why the nature of mind is simultaneously the base, path and fruit). Rigpa is the “knowledge” of the basis (i.e. the nature of mind). Mistaking this present “awareness” as it is a grievous mistake. Although there is a thin line between ignorance(avidya) and wisdom(vidya), they are worlds apart.

“The sage oriented toward realization who explains to every flawed person with little merit he meets, ‘The genuine realization that whatever arises is the nature of the dharmakaya is itself self-arisen wisdom,’ and ‘Absorption is accordingly nescience and manas,’ teaches what is tantamount to a fabrication that seduces beings. Because of this, one sees [disciples] who are cut off from the profound dharma, which will not be found elsewhere. Such a teacher is a thief of this vehicle. There are many appearing nowadays”. – Jigme Lingpa

“Designating appearances as the dharmakaya obscures me,
designating whatever appears as mind obscures me,
designating wisdom as mind obscures me”
- Samantabhadra (The Natural State)

Dharmadhatu SG

Thanks, i did think it was a little dangerous when u mentioned mind and nature is the same.

I have read that the pith instructions section (mengagde) sometimes contains contradicting instructions because they are relevant for people at different stages/capacities. So it is important to be discerning.

An Eternal Now SG

There is no contradictions between what asun said and what I said in the previous thread.

In fact I have said exactly what he said here.

There is only one nature of mind, and it can manifest in two modes: wisdom or ignorance.

Dzogchen defines mind and consciousness in the deluded, dualistic sense. Both mind and rigpa are also the manifestation of the nature of mind. But also one must not mistake nature of mind with “One Mind” – in fact, there is no ultimate mind transcending manifestation at all, nature of mind is simply the nature of the manifestation just like there is no wetness without water or heat without fire. Therefore it is in this sense that Namdrol pointed out that mind and nature of mind depends on each other.

The point to differentiate rigpa and mind is not to reify rigpa into something ultimate transcending manifestation, but merely to point out the difference between wisdom and ignorance. Otherwise stupid people will say stupid things like “dualistic thoughts are ok, belief in self is ok, cos everything is nature of mind, everything is rigpa”. That is why Jigme Lingpa warned that conceited elephants of Ati proclaim nowadays that dualistic thoughts are rigpa. He is warning us about this. Everything is nature of mind is correct, but everything is rigpa is wrong – suffering is manifestation of marigpa (ignorance), not rigpa (knowledge of one’s nature). Just as suffering and samsara is also equally a manifestation of the nature of mind as wisdom and nirvana, does not mean you can equate them both. In actuality they are a world apart conventionally speaking. And this is why Buddha taught four noble truths. So remember: one ground, two paths, two outcomes.

On the other hand, wisdom is a stream and ignorance is also a stream, all is empty from top to bottom, there is nothing inherent. As Namdrol pointed out before, there is no rigpa that exists beyond the five elements, it is just a different way of talking or viewing them. In marigpa five elements arise out of dualistic consciousness, in rigpa everything arises as the display/radiance of rigpa in five wisdoms. So rigpa does not transcend manifestation, it is only a different way of "seeing" or experiencing manifestation – in their actual state as the inseparability of luminosity and emptiness rather than through dualistic and inherent view.

But if you are mistaken that there is an Awareness that underlies perceptions and thoughts as their unchanging source and substratum and therefore transcends mind/thoughts/perceptions, that becomes wrong Advaita view. For liberation there must be completely no background at all… Wisdom must allow us to see, there is only this self-luminous mindstream (be it affected or unaffected by ignorance), completely no background. There can be no compromise. In anatta this is clearly seen.

Mahamudra and Pali suttas do Not define mind and consciousness as deluded in contrast to wisdom – in other words the entire mindstream be it in the mode of wisdom or ignorance, all is just mind/nature of mind. There is terminology differences in this case.

This afternoon I quoted Niguma, this evening I flipped through a book and found Niguma's verse. It is quite synchronistic. So I will just paste the verse I saw on the book:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/02/niguma-mahamudra-as-spontaneous.html

Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation
Don't do anything whatsoever with the mind -
Abide in an authentic, natural state.
One's own mind, unwavering, is reality.
The key is to meditate like this without wavering;
Experience the Great [reality] beyond extremes.
In a pellucid ocean,
Bubbles arise and dissolve again.
Just so, thoughts are no different from ultimate reality.
So don't find fault; remain at ease.
Whatever arises, whatever occurs,
Don't grasp - release it on the spot.
Appearances, sounds, and objects are one's own mind;
There's nothing except mind.
Mind is beyond the extremes of birth and death.
The nature of mind, awareness,
Uses the objects of the five senses, but
Does not wander from reality.
In the state of cosmic equilibrium
There is nothing to abandon or practice;
No meditation or post-meditation period.

~ Miranda Shaw (tr.) "Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation," in Passionate Enlightenment.

Extracted from: http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2004/11/niguma-mahamudra-as-spontaneous.html

bycai SG

There is no contradictions between what asun said and what I said in the previous thread.

In fact I have said exactly what he said here.

There is only one nature of mind, and it can manifest in two modes: wisdom or ignorance.

Dzogchen defines mind and consciousness in the deluded, dualistic sense. Both mind and rigpa are also the manifestation of the nature of mind. But also one must not mistake nature of mind with “One Mind” – in fact, there is no ultimate mind transcending manifestation at all, nature of mind is simply the nature of the manifestation just like there is no wetness without water or heat without fire. Therefore it is in this sense that Namdrol pointed out that mind and nature of mind depends on each other.

The point to differentiate rigpa and mind is not to reify rigpa into something ultimate transcending manifestation, but merely to point out the difference between wisdom and ignorance. Otherwise stupid people will say stupid things like “dualistic thoughts are ok, belief in self is ok, cos everything is nature of mind, everything is rigpa”. That is why Jigme Lingpa warned that conceited elephants of Ati proclaim nowadays that dualistic thoughts are rigpa. He is warning us about this. Everything is nature of mind is correct, but everything is rigpa is wrong – suffering is manifestation of marigpa (ignorance), not rigpa (knowledge of one’s nature). Just as suffering and samsara is also equally a manifestation of the nature of mind as wisdom and nirvana, does not mean you can equate them both. In actuality they are a world apart conventionally speaking. And this is why Buddha taught four noble truths. So remember: one ground, two paths, two outcomes.

On the other hand, wisdom is a stream and ignorance is also a stream, all is empty from top to bottom, there is nothing inherent. As Namdrol pointed out before, there is no rigpa that exists beyond the five elements, it is just a different way of talking or viewing them. In marigpa five elements arise out of dualistic consciousness, in rigpa everything arises as the display/radiance of rigpa in five wisdoms. So rigpa does not transcend manifestation, it is only a different way of “seeing” or experiencing manifestation – in their actual state as the inseparability of luminosity and emptiness rather than through dualistic and inherent view.

But if you are mistaken that there is an Awareness that underlies perceptions and thoughts as their unchanging source and substratum and therefore transcends mind/thoughts/perceptions, that becomes wrong Advaita view. For liberation there must be completely no background at all… Wisdom must allow us to see, there is only this self-luminous mindstream (be it affected or unaffected by ignorance), completely no background. There can be no compromise. In anatta this is clearly seen.

Mahamudra and Pali suttas do Not define mind and consciousness as deluded in contrast to wisdom – in other words the entire mindstream be it in the mode of wisdom or ignorance, all is just mind/nature of mind. There is terminology differences in this case.

This afternoon I quoted Niguma, this evening I flipped through a book and found Niguma’s verse. It is quite synchronistic. So I will just paste the verse I saw on the book:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/02/...

Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation
Don’t do anything whatsoever with the mind -
Abide in an authentic, natural state.
One’s own mind, unwavering, is reality.
The key is to meditate like this without wavering;
Experience the Great [reality] beyond extremes.
In a pellucid ocean,
Bubbles arise and dissolve again.
Just so, thoughts are no different from ultimate reality.
So don’t find fault; remain at ease.
Whatever arises, whatever occurs,
Don’t grasp - release it on the spot.
Appearances, sounds, and objects are one’s own mind;
There’s nothing except mind.
Mind is beyond the extremes of birth and death.
The nature of mind, awareness,
Uses the objects of the five senses, but
Does not wander from reality.
In the state of cosmic equilibrium
There is nothing to abandon or practice;
No meditation or post-meditation period.

~ Miranda Shaw (tr.) “Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation,” in Passionate Enlightenment.

Extracted from: http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2004/11/n…

Awesomely precise! Nothing dangerous to mention the mind and nature of mind is the same. Probably, one might be thunderously astonished in realization at that moment of grace-like wow! such amazingly amusing that all sentience and buddha is same same of the same one mind like 天上天下为我独尊,and 大乘无量寿经-一切皆成佛. The fact that is different and unloving is ignorant mind, which is the cause & effect at works. Most emperors in the Tang dynasty, and persian king An Shi Gao, prince Bodhidharma renounced upon realization, to impart buddha dharma

Dharmadhatu SG

I see, thanks for sharing...

what's with the cancellation part on the Niguma quote?

bycai SG

Bubbles arise and dissolve again.
Just so, thoughts are no different from ultimate reality.
So don’t find fault; remain at ease.
Whatever arises, whatever occurs,

this is theravada approach where bodhi mind is not being realized. it dwell on emptiness bearing loving kindness as a separate entity with others

An Eternal Now SG

The cancellation is some coding error in sgforums. Fixed it.

An Eternal Now SG

Hi, have you realized this mind? By the way who is your teacher?

An Eternal Now SG

this is theravada approach where bodhi mind is not being realized. it dwell on emptiness bearing loving kindness as a separate entity with others

Not sure what you mean here, but Theravada has a lot of emphasis on loving kindness too. Not to make judgements on them. I think they are an excellent tradition.