Do enlightened beings feel physical pain?

allkosong SG

Hello all - I was wondering if enlightened beings, such as Buddha, still feel physical pain. And if they do, how do they endure it especially severe pain such as an excrutiating toothache or cancer? Thanks in advance for your reply.

An Eternal Now SG

Yes Buddha feels physical pain, but not mental suffering.

He said:

"An untaught worldling, O monks, experiences pleasant feelings, he experiences painful feelings and he experiences neutral feelings. A well-taught noble disciple likewise experiences pleasant, painful and neutral feelings. Now what is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists herein between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling?

"When an untaught worldling is touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. He thus experiences two kinds of feelings, a bodily and a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart and, following the first piercing, he is hit by a second dart. So that person will experience feelings caused by two darts. It is similar with an untaught worldling: when touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. So he experiences two kinds of feeling: a bodily and a mental feeling.

"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He does not know, according to facts, the arising and ending of these feelings, nor the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings. In him who lacks that knowledge, an underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called an untaught worldling who is fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is fettered by suffering, this I declare.

"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.

"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he does not resist (and resent) it. Hence, in him no underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness. And why not? As a well-taught noble disciple he knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare.

allkosong SG

thank you for your reply. i've read that some enlightened beings in the past went through their final years in great physical pain without a single moan and groan, as if they did not feel anything. how did they do that?

An Eternal Now SG

They have reached a very high degree of deconstruction and transcendence. Even the imprints of body, pain, self are dissolved into suchness. The latent imprints and tendencies are released. There is no more aversion.

However, all enlightened beings will and can feel bodily pain, including Buddha. They just don’t have mental suffering as a result. As Buddha pointed out, their feeling is a bodily one, not a mental one. Feelings are sensations that can either be pleasant, neutral or unpleasant.

An Eternal Now SG

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.0…

“Now, Aggivessana, this body — endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion — should be envisioned as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. In one who envisions the body as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self, any desire for the body, attraction to the body, following after the body is abandoned.

“There are these three kinds of feeling: a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling, and neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. On the occasion when one feels a pleasant feeling, one does not feel either a painful feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. One feels only a pleasant feeling on that occasion. On the occasion when one feels a painful feeling, one does not feel either a pleasant feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. One feels only a painful feeling on that occasion. On the occasion when one feels a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling feeling, one does not feel either a pleasant feeling or a painful feeling. One feels only a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling on that occasion.

“A pleasant feeling is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing.

“Seeing this, an instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with pleasant feeling, disenchanted with painful feeling, disenchanted with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. From dispassion, he is released. With release, there is the knowledge, ‘Released.’ He discerns, ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’ A monk whose mind is thus released does not take sides with anyone, does not dispute with anyone. He words things by means of what is said in the world but without grasping at it.”

Now at that time Ven. Sariputta was sitting² behind the Blessed One, fanning him. The thought occurred to him, “Indeed, it seems that the Blessed One speaks to us of the abandoning of each of these mental qualities through direct knowledge.[3] Indeed, it seems that the One Well-gone speaks to us of the relinquishing of each of these mental qualities through direct knowledge.”[4] As Ven. Sariputta was reflecting thus, his mind was released from fermentations through not-clinging. While in LongNails the wanderer there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”

Weychin SG

Maybe you can read about the XVIth Karmarpa, when he was dying with stomach cancer. He showed more concern with people around him than over himself. His body was warmth and supple for a long time even after he passed on! And his body have shrunk very much before he was cremated!

Dharmadhatu SG

Hi, just my opinion. It is possible to go through the end without any pain or suffering if one has returned all or most of the karmic debts and also with great merits and blessings of a teacher. This may be so even for an unenlightened person. But such cases are rare.

i read on Rinchen Dorjee Rinpoche's website that there was one disciple of his who passed away recently without any suffering at all in spite of having cancer cells spread throughout his body. He experienced cancer without any pain for the last part of his life. This was due to his strong faith in his teacher and great merits. He has taken birth in Amitabha pureland in the highest grade.

For the case of enlightened people, there are many varieties. But i have also read or heard of quite many cases, there is no suffering. They pass away at will. Total freedom.

An Eternal Now SG

That would depend on one’s karma.

Even the Buddha was not spared from pain in his last days.

“And soon after the Blessed One had eaten the meal provided by Cunda, a dire sickness fell upon him, even dysentery, and he suffered sharp and deadly pains. But the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly understanding and unperturbed.”

Dharmadhatu SG

There are many interpretations about that.

It is sometimes taken that someone who attained Buddhahood cannot truly have any residual karma. That goes against the definition of Buddha. For them, manifestations of sicknesses are merely for the sake of benefitting others, whether to teach or in some other way.

Someone like 16th Karmapa, he manifested many sicknesses of different varieties with no connection one after another just before he died in America. His vital signs often went to a very critical stage before reversing miraculously. All the time, he was seemingly unaffected and cheerful. His doctors and care-takers were completely taken aback. These sicknesses were due to him taking on the karma of other beings. After he passed away, it is said that cures for some sicknesses (that he manifested?) were 'coincidentally' found. His doctor was so affected that he wrote an article on this and i think developed a strong interest in spirituality after that.

Someone did mention to me from personal experience that it was part of the process of practice and possible that karma is cleared up to the extent that it is impossible to become sick anymore. Unless they wished to benefit others. In which case, for the great bodhisattvas, there is no difference between pain and happiness. They are able to undertake the empty appearance of sickness with equanimity to relieve the sufferings of others.

bycai SG

Excruciating pain like cancer...wondering cancer patients would feel pain while in sleep.