Don't place any teachers above scrutiny

An Eternal Now SG

Here is what The Dalai Lama has to say:

‘Criticize openly,’ His Holiness declared. ‘That’s the only way. If there is incontrovertible evidence of wrongdoing, teachers should be confronted with it. They should be allowed to admit their wrongs, make amends, and undergo a rehabilitation process. If a teacher won’t respond, students should publish the situation in a newspaper, not omitting the teacher’s name,” His Holiness said. “The fact that the teacher may have done many other good things should not keep us silent.” Again, in 2001, when answering a similar question, he advised potential converts to check a guru’s qualifications carefully; ‘The best thing is,‘ the Dalai Lama said, ‘whenever exploitation, sexual abuse or money abuse happen, make them public.’

An Eternal Now SG

By the way, like in ANY scenarios... one must never give rise to a mind of hate or negativity. I.e. even to the lama who abused you etc. This goes to anyone, not just to a lama. A person who has this hatred will likely go to lower realms regardless of who he is dealing with - whether with a true vajra master, fake vajra master or just an ordinary person like your boss or your friend.

So if you want to criticize or whatever it must be done out of right circumstance, right motivation and compassion, never a negative mind.

This is what the Buddha said in the suttas:

Even were bandits savagely to sever you limb from limb with a two-handled saw, he who entertaineth hate on that account in his heart would not be one who carried out my teaching.

2009novice SG

当然你有权力说，这个法师我就不亲近他了，我也不护持他了，可以，你可以默然离开，可以的，你有选择权。这个是佛陀对菩萨的一个戒法，所谓的说四众过戒，他整个制戒的道理在这里。

sorry don't quite understand... if we keep mute, wouldn't others be in harm's way...?

Would it be better to feedback to the Sangha community and let them decide the best course of action...?

An Eternal Now SG

sorry don't quite understand... if we keep mute, wouldn't others be in harm's way...?

Would it be better to feedback to the Sangha community and let them decide the best course of action...?

I think you didn't read this part by sinweiy:

unless it involve breaking the precepts 破戒 AND 破见 EXTREME view! 破见 EXTREME view is quite different from breaking the precepts 破戒. EXTREME view in term of telling people to kill their parent, do sucide bombing, saying there's no cause and effect, no pureland, ALL and ALL, HARMING OTHERES etc. then that we can opposite. other than that it is VERY BAD to criticise as i concur with Dharmadhatu.

Weychin SG

Through the interesting discussions, there are points I come to have realised.
1) The word “criticism”, negativity which comes with disillusionment with the Guru, the institution of teacher/student relationship and Tibetan Buddhism and Buddhism in general.The venom which have you may observed in a particular monotheistic religion, where former believers carry their anger and negativity continually which they are not able to get out off!
2) If you’ve made a report against a misconduct of your teacher, you’ve made an accusation which may or may not be found true until thoroughly investigated. The issue can dealt as a matter of factedly, without additional fanfare! An accusation without undue criticism!
However, it is not easy be disillusioned if you’re the victim, wallowing both in guilt and anger of allowing yourself to be exploited, viewing Buddhism in negativity, effectively ending one’s positive affinity with Buddhism and may end slandering or badmouthing whenever the opportunity arises!

Weychin SG

Often, it is possible that an individual is seeking hero or idol worship, sense of wanting to be accepted, searching for an identity or whatever, where common sense does not prevail?
The sincerity of one’s quest open one’s vulnerability!
Gurus are worshipped like popstars! There so much seeking for sense of meaning of life,or feeling of emptiness we want filled, that some of us started this quest but do not really know what we really want until we’ve actually found it!

sinweiy SG

sorry don't quite understand... if we keep mute, wouldn't others be in harm's way...?

Would it be better to feedback to the Sangha community and let them decide the best course of action...?

miss out this?

但是有一个例外，这个人不但破戒，还破见，那这个菩萨要击鼓而攻之了。因为他不是私下行为有问题而已，他宣

说的法是错误的，开始在误导众生，一盲引众盲，相牵入火坑。他说，世间上没有因果，他说没有极乐世界的存在，大乘佛法非佛说。这个时候他所释放出来的已经不是对众生产生引导的力量，那这个就跟这条戒不一样了。所以我们必须厘清破戒跟破见的差别。

i think for general buddhist follower like u and me, a few breaking of precepts is fine, as nobody is perfect. not that it's harming others. like if u break precept, it doesn't harm me.

in the thread, from Ven Jing Jie, precept is not about those who know the law and breaks it, double the punishment. but precept does have its power in slowly lead them to enlightenment. (however Extreme view is a bit different from breaking precept. )

what old MCK suggest is not to belittle your buddhist "peers" in public, but rather talk to them nicely in Private. if they listen in the first time, good! if not, do it another time or two. if still they do not listen, Forget it. we don't want to become enermy in the future. master to master can also communicated privately rather than in public.

but if it involve stubborn Extreme view that the "master" is teaching others, then i think HHDL is right to make known to public, as this is harming other people.

sinweiy SG

in the thread, from Ven Jing Jie, precept is not about those who know the law and breaks it, double the punishment. but precept does have its power in slowly lead them to enlightenment.

for Buddhist precepts. the common misunderstanding is if one know the law and break them, commit even more serious offense. 知法犯法罪加一等. No. the precepts work the other way round. offen a remorse is felt, after the offense is commited, and when one seek forgiveness, the karma is reduce or even cleared. it is as if ur car is crashing into the wall, but u press the brake to reduce the impact. ordinally person without the precepts only crash into the wall without braking.

winsomeea SG

The difference I,ve noticed between the Chinese and Tibetan monks, is that most chinese monks show reserve, and a lot tibetan monks has a child like quality. The body language may interpreted as such, but then, only you can make your assessment with more in depth observations!

I have spoken to both. Tibetan monks are practising their own tibetan buddhism. The one I spoke to does not understand or know the buddhist words I told him. These few tibetan monks no doubt are nice.

Dharmadhatu SG

Of course, it is very bad to criticize your guru in normal circumstances. But if the "Guru" is sexually abusing people etc, what do you do? If you need to criticize him *for the right motivation: to protect others*, I say do it. As stated,
"Guru" is a role, not a person. The role as certain obligations, just as the role "student" has certain obligations. The sooner people sort this out, the better.

Of course, this does not give us license to criticize the "guru"'s every perceived mistake etc. Most of the time, for all those minor stuff, we are better to mind our own business. But every now and then, if some so called "guru" comes to bring great harm to others, then something must be done to stop the harm from continuing unchecked.

I understand your POV, however samayas are not flexible based on situational needs. If a student criticises, then he / she breaks his samaya and this entails its consequences... Full stop

This is not like the Bodhisattva vehicle where good intention overrides everything. Guru is not just a role. Once a person receives a Guru's transmission, he is forever linked to this teacher and transmission. This is not just a role that can be put on and removed.

What to do in a difficult situation like this? In life, there are many situations that put you between a rock and a hard place. I have no perfect advice on this. However, note that breaking samaya can derail you for many lives... and the consequences are farreaching

Dharmadhatu SG

yes, many people are Guru - chasing for the wrong reasons... this can lead very easily to the sexual abuses and other problems...

therefore it is important to be clear about our own motivations as well.

Dharmadhatu SG

actually, i should add that my own convictions are largely derived from my own experiences, which i have had some quite intense ones in the past.

in the dharma, it is not advisable to make decisions based on usual human way of thinking or judgement, rather in the long run, it is advisable to abide by what is stated in the teachings. Always, you will find that these wisdoms in the teachings will always prevail in the end.

An Eternal Now SG

I understand your POV, however samayas are not flexible based on situational needs. If a student criticises, then he / she breaks his samaya and this entails its consequences... Full stop

If a "guru" continues abusing students and one is prevented by fear to do anything about it or even leave the teacher, then I think it is no different from a cult worship. This is the kind of "corrupted understanding of samaya" that Namdrol warned about. This is not Buddhism as I know it. Anyway the Dalai Lama is right to encourage people to speak out when necessary and even write to the press.

As Namdrol pointed out:

On whether you should stay with a teacher who has acted in a way that is not in accord with Dharma, simply examine page 51 of Buddhist Ethics where it clearly says that one should immediately sever one's relationship with such a person. On whether it is necessarily a breakage of samaya to criticize one's guru, examine the six criteria Kongtrul lists for samaya breakage to exist when criticizing one's guru, page 257. It depends primarily on one's motives.

No one is ever going to feel good about it, but sometimes, for the protection of others, it is necessary.

An Eternal Now SG

btw to call samaya a social contract is quite apt. firstly samaya is sanskrit for agreement or contract. secondly samaya is two ways: both student and guru has obligation.

Dawnfirstlight SG

There's a Buddhist saying "依法不依人" (follow the Dharma and not the teacher)。I'm not sure whether this phrase was originated from Buddha but my Dharma friend told me that Buddha knew that this will happen, that's why Buddha said "依法不依人" (follow the Dharma and not the teacher)。

I believe respect is to be earned not by enforcement. I agree with AEN that it is necessary to speak out for the sake of others and Buddhism. I ever argued with a monk from China but I stopped short. Feel like telling him not to bring in all the bad practices from China which are against the Dharma but I did not as I understand that I have to respect the robe that he's wearing.

Fcukpap SG

Dawn...u r an upright lady with a conscientious heart and sensitivity towards others...no matter how wrong they are...

Dawnfirstlight SG

Dawn...u r an upright lady with a conscientious heart and sensitivity towards others...no matter how wrong they are...

Thanks to Buddha's teachings.

Fcukpap SG

its not just the teachings...but also your own diligence and awakenings...

sinweiy SG

..and the consequences are farreaching

indeed farreaching consequences, me (and MCK) are more on the side of keeping the faith of your teacher. there was once, people were criticing MCK for using a commentry book(Infinity Life Sutra) of Xia Lian. MCK listen to his teacher that the book is good. now the book is getting recognition. if MCK disobey his teacher, he will be cap with 背师叛道.

背师叛道 say it all, disobey your teacher is as good as rebelling the way.

not many understood or saw the deeper concern of obeying the teacher. MCK did. if u notice, it's shown in our educational system. any little mistreating of the child, they complain to parent. like this, how can teachers keep up a good standard.

this is similar to Buddhism. obeying the teacher top much higher than criticing the teacher. why so? the deeper concern is that criticing end the entire system of Buddhism or any educational system! As people looses faith in the teaching. Slowly it will lead to dharma ending. faith is very important. 信為道元功德母

read: Faith in Mahayana Buddhism
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/185175

i mean not getting the view right is not as serious as not having faith. getting right view is not easy too. you still can get it right in the future if one has faith. but if no faith, then it's even hard to get people believe again in the future.

consider comparing a bad teacher teaching a group of student, with student no longer interested in learning. which weight more? student no longer interested in learning! the teaching become no use at all!

Dawnfirstlight SG

背师叛道 say it all, disobey your teacher is as good as rebelling the way.

read: Faith in Mahayana Buddhism
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/185175

What I'm going to say happens in reality. The bad students will stay but the good students who really wish to practice the true Dharma lose faith in temples. I told them that if this temple is not suitable for you, just go to another temple as there are many good temples around. However, they said they have no more faith in temples, many choose to practice at home. This is a sign of Dharma ending age which Buddha said the maras will chase the true Buddhists away from the temples. They chase the true Buddhists away by playing politics in the temple.

A good teacher like Ven. Hui Lu 慧律法师will not allow playing politics in his temple, he did say that he chased a troublemaker away for the sake of everyone. Whereas a bad teacher will condone their actions and turn a blind eye as they are the big donors or afraid to offend these people. Instead of reprimanding these people, the bad teacher praise them.

There's a popular Venerable who said that he had never and will never encourage Buddhists to donate money to build temples as once they are built, they will be occupied by maras. He said he will only encourage Buddhists to print Dharma books and other charity deeds. However, I feel that there are still many good practice temples around so I still feel that it is good to donate for building temples.

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