Don't place any teachers above scrutiny

last SG · 2012-06-14T00:27:03+00:00

Dawn...u r an upright lady with a conscientious heart and sensitivity towards others...no matter how wrong they are... Thanks to Buddha's teachings.

sinweiy SG

What I'm going to say happens in reality. The bad students will stay but the good students who really wish to practice the true Dharma lose faith in temples. I told them that if this temple is not suitable for you, just go to another temple as there are many good temples around. However, they said they have no more faith in temples, many choose to practice at home. This is a sign of Dharma ending age which Buddha said the maras will chase the true Buddhists away from the temples. They chase the true Buddhists away by playing politics in the temple.

i mean the good students didn't loose faith in the teaching, only that particular temple. and neither did the 'bad' student loose faith, although they practice wrongly and go to lower realms or something. they come out still can be guided back on track. but what i am pointing is new people from outside see the bad commotion within buddhist community will loose faith in buddhism. and take even longer time for them to learn the way per se.

anyway yea i agree, it's the working of "mara" to disrupt buddhism from the inside. the whole image of buddhism is already been effected. people are confuse with who to follow.

i see the topic "Don't place any teachers above scrutiny". perhaps this is applicable in dharma ending age. as people had already "spoiled the market." if not the basic is still have utmost respect to one's teacher. and i think why it's in the vajrayana do have it's reason. devotion does help one learn faster. and it's a 'risk' one have to take.

Dawnfirstlight SG

anyway yea i agree, it's the working of "mara" to disrupt buddhism from the inside. the whole image of buddhism is already been effected. people are confuse with who to follow.

Yes, you are correct. If we read the sutras, all the sutras said we must repsect one's teacher. One's teacher was placed in utmost important position and must have utmost respect to one's teacher. When one is taking the 8 precepts, the sutra asked whether did we take good care of our teacher when he was unwell. We have to answer yes or no before taking the 8 precepts. From here, we can tell that in the olden days, before the dharma ending age, teachers were of great importance.

An Eternal Now SG

teacher is of great importance even today, but devotion and faith should be earned, blind devotion is no good. i.e. they must be a good teacher who is highly qualified in many ways, well learned and well trained in precepts, samadhi and wisdom, in such a way that it naturally inspires faith and devotion even without the teacher needing to demand it from the student.

most teachers are ok (in the sense that their character is ok, does not abuse students etc, however whether they are greatly enlightened or their penetration of dharma is deep or complete is a different question as deeply enlightened teachers are rare these days), but there are always rotten apples, the black sheep

An Eternal Now SG

blind devotion is like the blind leading the blind, or a wolf leading a pack of sheep.

you need to be very clear yourself the character and qualities of the teacher who is leading you

blind faith and devotion is useless and even harmful (imagine the disasterous consequence of a sheep led by a wolf). i recommend, as buddha had recommend, a reasonable and clear sighted faith

sinweiy SG

regarding on different kind of faith, found an old topic from 2007:

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/273281

for pureland (especially non-or lower educated)(and or guru devoting technique of tibetan buddhism which normally involve young and innocent kid)(most or all good masters start from very young.)(they would not know who to follow. their parent or lama send them to follow a good teacher.) , they do just start with "good" faith. i.e.

"When you buy a loaf of bread, you expect it does not contain poison, that is based on good faith."

Kalama got kalama method. higher educated got higher educated method. lower educated got lower educated method. non educated got non educated method. just different med for different illness. cannot fix the kalama method on the non educated. won't work. to me the lowest and innocent is the highest and fastest, though risky method, straight away rid ignorance/doubt and arrogance. while the clever one think too much wandering thoughts. 聪明反被聪明误. blind by own arrogance.

An Eternal Now SG

yes as long as the faith is being invested for the right thing, with the right person guiding, i.e. good faith, faith will be a powerful strength that propels us on the path to enlightenment. Good faith is faith that is not blind (in the case of wolf leading sheep) but a faith that is rightly directed with the right teacher, right teaching, right goal, and so on.

without a foundation of faith, it is difficult to have progress

even those of great capacity like thusness, who was able to awaken without being personally guided by a teacher, attributed his progress to his faith in buddha. if he did not take the buddha's teaching seriously, there is no way he could have attained great realization. without taking buddha's teachings on anatta, emptiness and dependent origination seriously, he would have been stuck with the non-buddhist level of enlightenment.

only a pratyekabuddha or buddha is able to awaken completely without an existing buddha's teachings. and such beings are nonexistent until the end of the current buddha's dispensation

An Eternal Now SG

i was just telling someone the sutta i often quote:

and here is the relevant part to this topic:

"14. "Bhikkhus, when a Tathagata, accomplished and fully enlightened, claims to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging, he completely describes the full understanding of all kinds of clinging: he describes the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self.[9]

15. "Bhikkhus, in such a Dhamma and Discipline as that it is plain that confidence in the Teacher is rightly directed, that confidence in the Dhamma is rightly directed, that fulfillment of the precepts is rightly directed, and that the affection among companions in the Dhamma is rightly directed. Why is that? Because that is how it is when the Dhamma and Discipline is well proclaimed and well expounded, emancipating, conducive to peace, expounded by one who is fully enlightened.

An Eternal Now SG

Anyway my msg to her was this:

Yes, X teacher has not realized anatta. I have seen his writings before, they are not bad on Awareness teachings but only point to the I AMness and then progressing into One Mind. I rarely see experiential realization of anatta and emptiness being described nowadays… Not nonexistent but quite rare. Most are talking about I AM, one mind, etc. This is probably a reason why the Buddha listed “overcoming doctrine of Self” as the main/crucial difference separating his teaching and those of other teachers (would imply that clarity of view and realization about this is truly rare): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.0…

I have to thank Thusness, just earlier today I told him that if I haven’t known him, my understanding and experience would probably have peaked at the I AMness insight (there are others who told him the same thing) since the others around me I know personally have only gotten as far as that. Many people I personally know are stuck there for decades, many are stuck for their whole life. I am sharing what I know with whoever I have the condition to speak to… but it is not very easy for them to understand and see what I am saying (they may “agree” but not truly understand it), as the truth is often subtle and profound and many have their own experience and understanding, it is hard to put aside their views and investigate/challenge everything they thought they knew.

sinweiy SG

re-qoute from Ven Jing Jie again regarding the 'Gem' of Sangha. Ven Hai Tao also i heard he said before:

所以在律上说，一个菩萨僧宝，即使他犯了错，就像什么呢？譬如死尸，犹能度人。这个人身体死掉了，他死掉是他的因果嘛！但是我们抱着死尸，我们还是可以到彼岸嘛！譬如死尸，犹能度人。就是说，这个菩萨有过失，我不能宣说，因为他讲的法还是正法，很多弟子跟他学习，还是可以栽培善根，还是产生增上，这个死尸还是发挥了把这个人从此岸度到彼岸的效果，虽然他自己牺牲掉了。所以即便他的身口意有过失，菩萨为了护持正法的缘故，不应该来宣说。

considering the teacher teaches good dharma(not extreme view) to student but however commited some wrong deeds. a log/dead body in a sea, even though is blind itself, one can still use it to go to the other shore.

Weychin SG

I have spoken to both. Tibetan monks are practising their own tibetan buddhism. The one I spoke to does not understand or know the buddhist words I told him. These few tibetan monks no doubt are nice.

I think there is a list of controversial sects listed in this forum, maybe you can check whether the temple you visited is one of them!

Weychin SG

actually, i should add that my own convictions are largely derived from my own experiences, which i have had some quite intense ones in the past.

in the dharma, it is not advisable to make decisions based on usual human way of thinking or judgement, rather in the long run, it is advisable to abide by what is stated in the teachings. Always, you will find that these wisdoms in the teachings will always prevail in the end.

I would be appreciative if you could advise further on choosing a root guru you may have based on your individual experiences, it will prove to any interested in varjayana path, thanks!

Dharmadhatu SG

Hi, i think for Vajrayana path, teacher is very important. But this question is very wide and difficult to answer... I can only comment from i observed in Singapore context.

Obviously, it is very important you find a teacher with very good knowledge of whatever practice in Vajrayana you want to learn. teachers have different specialties. But this is often overlooked. The student is overwhelmed by charisma, publicity, and other public relation characteristics...

This teacher should be able to communicate with you in your language, and he should be reasonably accessible for any queries. your main teacher will have the kind of 'yuan' with you that you feel at ease with him/her and a genuine relationship can build up.

The teacher should be interested in your development, not only in how you will contribute to his/her activities. Though these 2 kinds of motivation are sometimes mixed up in various degrees and difficult to discern. He should have time and patience and interest in you & your questions to a reasonable extent. I say reasonable, because sometimes students have so many neuroses that it is good to cut them off :-)

If you are looking to practice Dzogchen, the teacher must be realised. It is impossible for the blind to lead the blind.

Don't hurry to call a teacher 'root Guru', because this is not something one chooses really. The teacher who gives you the greatest, the most ultimate benefit, that one automatically becomes your root Guru.

There are also 2 camps of thinking. One camp says that you should just stick to one Guru till the end. The other one says that you should be open and learn from many Gurus. Each has pros and cons. I think that for anyone beginning Vajrayana, you should choose the open option first because it expands your horizons.

Each teacher comes with a style of teaching, some tend to be more on the intellectual side, some more on the practical side. Some more traditional, some more free-style... So the teacher you choose depends on which style you are more comfortable with.

The teacher should be looking to make you more and more independent and self-equipped with all the knowledges, skills and confidence to go on the spiritual path yourself. You should not be more and more dependent on the teacher as some kind of crutches (emotional or otherwise)

You can also take a look at how the closer long-time disciples of the teacher are doing... if you like how they are turning out, then it may also be a good sign that the teacher is doing a good job.

Besides assessing the teacher, one should also assess oneself, your own motivation and see what is it exactly one is after. If you understand yourself well, i feel that more or less, one will have alot more clarity to choose a proper teacher.

Actually, this teacher-choosing thing is very difficult to define as there is such a wide variety of situations. What i said is just what came to my mind impromptu. It is a matter of your conditions and merits. I would suggest that anyone who wants to get a good teacher, makes strong prayers to Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to guide them towards a genuine master and accumulate merits. They should also start by learning as much as possible about Vajrayana. There are alot of introductory books out there already.

Weychin SG

Thank you for being informative! And also the effort, thoughts and kindness you’ve put into this post on pertinent points especially as there are many diverse paths of different entrants!

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