(1) Buddhism & Vegetarianism & (2) Kamma & Enlightenment

gaomu SG

Two questions:

(1) Buddhism & Vegetarianism
This is what I understand: during Buddha’s time, Buddha did not specifically dictate his followers to abstain from taking meat, although it is clear from the 5 precepts that thou shall not kill or harm living things. Later on, followers in the Theravada tradition in general do consume meat while those in the Mahayana do not.
My question is: Theravada and Mahayana traditions notwithstanding, if you were to make a judgement based on your personal understanding of Buddhism, should Buddhists consume meat? There is no right or wrong answer since there is no definite Buddhist teachings (definite yes or no) on this.

(2) Kamma & Enlightenment
Kamma is about cause and effect, i.e., A leads to B, where A is what the person did/does/will be doing and B is the outcome from A. Enlightenment is about the cessation of suffering through the thorough understanding and practice of the noble eightfold path.
My question is: If a person has bad kamma as a result of the bad things done in the past, but he has a thorough understanding and diligently practise the noble eightfold path perfectly in the present life, can he achieve enlightenment in this present life, notwithstanding the yet-to-be manifested bad kamma?

An Eternal Now SG

1) Buddhist can consume meat as long as they are not killed, not asked to be killed, its killing is not witnessed by you. i.e. frozen meat

Some Mahayana sutras recommend vegetarian as part of bodhisattva practices. Vajrayana and tantras however permit meat. And of course Theravada as you mentioned, does not teach vegetarianism.

2) Of course he can, provided he has not committed the five grave sins (hurting buddha, killing arahant, killing parents, causing dissension in sangha). Check out the story of Angulimala, who actually killed almost a thousand men, but later became an arahant after being converted by Buddha.

Aik TC SG

If a person has bad kamma as a result of the bad things done in the past, but he has a thorough understanding and diligently practise the noble eightfold path perfectly in the present life, can he achieve enlightenment in this present life, notwithstanding the yet-to-be manifested bad kamma?

It is attainable based on the description of Sutta SN 35.145 below.

SN 35.145

Kamma Sutta: Action

translated from the Pali by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak.

"Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.

"And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma.

"And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."

An Eternal Now SG

Its interesting though that the Buddha in the Pali Canon seems to suggest that the five grave deeds prevent awakening. Late Mahayana sutras and Vajrayana tantras however suggests skillful methods that allow such beings, including the icchantikas, to awaken or seek rebirth in pure lands. I have some skepticism of this as I shall explain below.

In DN 2, the Blessed One addressed the monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not killed his father — that righteous man, that righteous king — the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat."

According to the Digha Commentary, (i.237-8) that king Ajātasattu was born in the Lohakumbhiya niraya (niraya = hell) after his death. He will suffer there for 60,000 years, and later will reach nibbana as a Pacceka Buddha named Viditavisesa (Vijitāvī). Ajātasattu’s crime of parricide is often given as an example of an upacchedaka-kamma which has the power of destroying the effect of meritorious deeds (E.g., AA.i.369). He is also mentioned as the worst kind of parricide (E.g. AA.i.335).

If this were true, this makes me wonder, why had Buddha, being someone of utmost compassion, wisdom and skillful means, not taught any method (if there were any at all) for his faithful student king Ajātasattu - admittedly someone who had the potential to attain stream entry had he not killed his father, so that he may awaken or at least avoid a rebirth in the lower realm? It is reasonable that the Buddha would have taught something if he knew in his omniscience that it could help his student prevent 60,000 years of suffering in hell.

Since the Buddha did not teach any methods to him in the original suttas, it would therefore seem that it is reasonable to say that someone who has committed the five heinous sins are indeed as Parikuppa Sutta puts it: incurable, and are destined for rebirth in hell. (at least for the long time he has to spend in hell)

An Eternal Now SG

AN 5.129
PTS: A iii 146
Parikuppa Sutta: In Agony
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2012

Translator's note: This discourse lists the five grave deeds that are said to prevent one's chances of attaining any of the noble attainments in this lifetime. People who commit them fall — immediately at the moment of death — into hell. No help from outside is able to mitigate the sufferings they will endure in hell, and thus they are said to be incurable. Only when the results of these deeds have worked themselves out will they be released from hell. Even if they return to the human plane, they will continue to suffer the consequences of their deeds. For example, Ven. Moggallana, one of the Buddha's foremost disciples, killed his parents many aeons ago, and the results of that deed pursued him even through his final lifetime, when he was beaten to death.

"There are these five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable. Which five? One who has killed his/her mother, one who has killed his/her father, one who has killed an arahant, one who — with a corrupted mind — has caused the blood of a Tathagata to flow, and one who has caused a split in the Sangha. These are the five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable."

See also: SN 1.38; SN 4.13; SN 36.6.

Satanicphone SG

Have you ever wonder why Singapore is alway free from major disasters such as earthquakes and tsunamis? It is because there are many vegetarians in Singapore.

An Eternal Now SG

In India, 20-42% of the population are vegetarian.

But India is not absent of natural disasters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_disasters_in_India

Vegetarianism doesn't mean no bad karma from past lives.

Weychin SG

1)Do you eat just for sustenance only, or do you still crave for this food or that when you’ll are hungry?! Probably there is still room for further contemplation!
2)Are you very much overly concerned or emotionally affected by what is going happen to you later, by what has happened or is happening?

Weychin SG

sinweiy SG

...

sinweiy SG

It is because there are many vegetarians in Singapore.

got increase meh? i find that vegetarian stalls in S'pore seem to close down easily.

i think non-vegetarian friends do not believe in totally eating vegetarians diet to be very healthy. it's known to be proven in health science. the things to do with Protein, Nutrition, vitamin, calcium etcs. many people will think in this way.

i got a friend who is like this but also believe in fengshui and chi energy (the unseen forces which are not so scentific proven).

i would tell him that i believe that the meat he eat also contain a form of resentment chi. the resentment chi is produce when the animal is killed. that resentment chi will effect the quality of the meat. :)

in Mahayana Buddhism, there's something known as "collective" karma.

Collective Karma

The universe that we inhabit and our shared perception of it are the results of a common karma. Likewise, the places that we will experience in future rebirths will be the outcome of the karma that we share with the other beings living there. The actions of each of us, human or nonhuman, have contributed to the world in which we live. We all have a common responsibility for our world and are connected with everything in it.

~His Holiness The 14th Dalai Lama

gaomu SG

I agree vegetarian stalls in S’pore seem to close down easily. Also, although they are common in food courts and hawker centres but they serve mostly deep fried food. Hence, apart from cooking vegetarian meals at home, it is quite a challenge to be a healthy vegetarian.

sinweiy SG

teaching aside, i think nowaday as i believe and read :-

becoming vegetarian is one of the most important and effective actions you can take to ease the strain on our Earth's limited resources, protect the planet from pollution, prevent global warming, and save countless species from extinction.

According to Dr. David Brubaker, PhD, at Johns Hopkins University's Center for a Livable Future, "The way that we breed animals for food is a threat to the planet. It pollutes our environment while consuming huge amounts of water, grain, petroleum, pesticides and drugs. The results are disastrous."

http://www.chooseveg.com/environment.asp

Dawnfirstlight SG

I think it depends on which area. If there are too many vegetarian stalls in one area, it tends to close down fast. There's only one vegetarian stall near my place. The stall is doing very good business. The queue is long almost every day. The queue is so long that the next stall owner is not happy and keep telling the customers not to obstruct his stall doing business. At least I see some improvements compare to many years ago where there are fewer vegetarian stalls.

There are many vegetarian stalls at Bukit Batok and they are close to each other but every vegetarian stalls is doing good business. I think the business depends on whether does the cook can cook well.

There's a very good vegetarian restaurant at Quality Hotel in Balestier. They have good vegetarian buffet during weekends and the price is also reasonable. There are many people who turn to vegetarian food because of health and not religion.

2009novice SG

Hi, just to share my views.

I'm not sure for Vajrayana part... but as for Mahayana Pureland, I learnt that one needs to repent sincerely for his grave negative karma... including the 5 heinous deeds.

As long as he repents, he can be reborn in Pureland but will take very long... lowest grade.

For King Ajātasattu, what I know is that he did went to hell but suffer for a short time only. After that he immediately rose to the deva realms... I didn't know he was stuck there for as long as 60,000 years.

2009novice SG

there's one question i was thinking...

if Ven. Moggallana did murdered his parents aeons ago, how could he be awaken?

Like King Ajātasattu, Ven. Moggallana would also be wounded... incapacitated... unable to reach enlightenment.

Another version i know he was a fisherman many past lives.... and therefore had to suffered this negative karma.

An Eternal Now SG

In the Suttas, Mogallana recounted having spent a very very long time in the hells. Even King Ajatasattu is said to be able to become a paccekabuddha after finishing his 60000 years in hell, according to Digha commentary. So when Buddha said that doers of the five heinous deeds are "incurable" it doesn't mean "eternal". It just means incurable for that very very long length of time.

Aik TC SG

@AEN.....

Thought one of the 48 Great Vows of Amitabha Buddha states that:

“Provided I become a Buddha, if the beings of the ten quarters who after having heard my name, and thus awakened their highest faith and aspiration of re-birth in that country of mine, even they have recollected such a thought for ten times only, they are destined to be born there, (with the exception of those who have committed the five deadly sins (Anantarya), and have blasphemed the orthodox law (Dharma); otherwise may I not attain the enlightenment”.

Wouldn’t it mean those who have committed the five deadly sins and those icchantikas who have blasphemed the Dharma would not be allowed to seek rebirth in the pure lands?

An Eternal Now SG

It is interesting. I thought pure land buddhism states that those who commit the five deadly sins can be born in the lowest of the lowest grade, but I'm not sure how they can achieve that birth. But nice that you found the quotation with regards to the 5 deadly sins. I have long suspected this is so.

All forms are illusions
Rebirth in the Pure Land is only possible through pure karma


The Pure Land School of Buddhism advocates that when people die, they bring with them the karma that they had committed to be reborn in the Western Pure Land. This led to a lively debate on the subject. Some people argued that it means that regardless of the virtuous or evil karma [1] that one has committed, a person only needs to wholeheartedly recite “Amitabha Budhha” to the extent that he resonates with the power of the Amitabha Buddha’s vow, then he will be reborn in the Western Pure Land.

On the other hand, others advocated that people must bring with them virtuous karma in order to be reborn in the Western Pure Land, but not when they bring evil karma. Yet, others advocated that a person cannot be reborn in the Western Pure Land as long as he has karma and rebirth in the Pure Land can occur only when all the karma have been eliminated.

In reality, all people will be reborn according to their karma. The kinds of karma and the corresponding realms of rebirth are as follows:

    Karma of extreme evil leads one to be reborn in the hell realm
    Karma of ignorance and foolishness lead one to be reborn in the animal realm
    Karma of superstition leads one to be reborn in the ghosts and deities realm
    Blessings of observing the Five Precepts lead one to be reborn in the human realm
    Blessings of performing the Ten Virtuous Deeds lead one to be reborn in the heaven realm
    Actions or karma from hatred, anger and fighting lead one to be reborn in the asura realm

These are called “rebirth according to one’s karma”.

To be reborn in the Western Pure Land requires pure karma. Besides the pure karma, rebirth in the Western Pure Land is not possible at all with whatever kinds of virtuous and evil karma. Therefore, there is no basis to speak of rebirth in the Western Pure Land and then returning to this Saha world to bear the retribution of the karma that they had committed. Only the Bodhisattava, with the power of his vow, can return to this Saha world.

Notes:

[1] karma: A deed or action (either positive or negative; intentional or unintentional) of our thoughts, speech or body and its consequences. These consequences may manifest immediately or at any time in the future. Positive karma will generate pleasant consequences and vice-versa.