JonLS
why the need to be present as opposed to being lost in
thought?
awareness doesn't give a hoot!
it simply IS
.....
JonLS excellent quote Pete, what i've noticed is that any need
whatsoever to do or accomplish anything, is simply one thought too
many! unless, of course, you see the thought for what it is and
don't take it seriously, don't identify with it
what it's really about is awareness, awareness, awareness
about being aware of thoughts rather than being lost in the thought
stream or in perceptions
Eckhart Tolle has helped me see that thoughts or perceptions are
not the problem... it's IDENTIFICATION with them that makes the
difference
but even then... no matter how much identification there is, it
doesn't change your true nature as awareness itself...
so letting go of needing life to unfold in any particular manner
whether lost in thought or completely here and now totally
aware...
is true freedom
and is also the nature of awareness itself
Yesterday at 1:54am · Like
JonLS "as when the effects of these thoughts are seen directly,
they tend to stop arising."
what happens in time is that there's a continuing story of you
being able to see thoughts for what they are, no longer being
unconsciously identified with them, seeing the effect they have on
you as you become more and more aware of their effect on
you...
but of course, this is just more interpretation by the mind that is
becoming more aware of it's own inner workings and more aware of
it's true nature as the crystal clear awareness in which all this
phenomena arises in/as
Yesterday at 1:59am · Like
.....
JonLS "If we are caught up in our thoughts, this means we are
still unable to let go of our obsessions and attachments,
etc."
what i am aware of AEN, is that any identification, with any
thought, brings you back into identification with form, with a
someone who can do something, your sentence above is a good example
of that
9 hours ago · Like
JonLS there's really NOTHING that is needed to be believed or
worked on or figured out, it's just the separate sense of self, the
idea, that would need to do any of that
9 hours ago · Like
AEN The story of a problem and someone having a problem is a
story... what is happening however is just thoughts, attachment,
obsession, etc. What can be seen is that attachment, craving, leads
to suffering. What can also be seen is that there is an end and way
that leads to the end of suffering... It certainly has nothing to
do with engaging in more stories or resistance... The way is simply
the view, path, realization (that always already, no seer or
something seen, only the pristine and self-luminous percept shining
forth and vanishing each moment according to causality), and
actualization of the realization of anatta and emptiness in daily
life, the effortless transcendance (more like non-clinging, or non
conceiving) of any self or anything inherent... in each moment,
action, experience. In this actualization of wisdom, nothing is
conceived, nothing is grasped, and neither is there something to
let go nor somebody to let go... as always already, whatever arises
self-liberates upon inception like writing on water. In that way
whatever thoughts arises are no harm - just like thieves entering
an empty house. But then... to say that being lost in thought is
OK.... that to me is not quite right, it is not spoken from the
'place' of actualization.
9 hours ago · Like
JonLS AEN wrote:
"The story of a problem and someone having a problem is a story...
what is happening however is just thoughts, attachment, obsession,
etc. What can be seen is that attachment, craving, leads to
suffering. What can also be seen is that there is an end and way
that leads to the end of suffering..."
what i've recognized is that even the final chapter of a story, the
part about it unwinding or becoming aware of it's own emptiness, is
still just more of the same, still that movement of thought that
has some kind of goal, some kind of momentum to keep going for it's
own sake, being aware of this is what you call "anatta and
emptiness in daily life", or another way of saying is that is just
simple aware presence
or even more simply, just being mindful
9 hours ago · Like
JonLS "In this actualization of wisdom, nothing is conceived,
nothing is grasped, and neither is there something to let go nor
somebody to let go... as always already, whatever arises
self-liberates upon inception like writing on water"
clearly AEN, we're saying the same using different words :)
9 hours ago · Like
AEN JonLS, while the story of 'someone having a problem' is merely
a story because there is no 'self', nonetheless wisdom is a direct
experience - the actualization of the luminous-emptiness in each
perception, thought and action is undeniable, and also ignorance is
also something to be observed - cannot be denied. Therefore the
four noble truths are called 'truths' - the fact of suffering, the
fact of the cause of suffering, the fact of the end of suffering,
the path that leads to the end of suffering. All these are
experiential facts... If we say 'its ok to be lost in thought', we
are merely entertaining our momentum and not seeing the truths
clearly. When we approach the four noble truths, it appears that
it's more of a story - as if there is a person having suffering, a
person who needs to reach the end of suffering etc... but actually
its not. As the Buddha teach, there is no self, there is only
suffering, its cause, its end, and way to end it. There is just the
experience without the experiencer. Experience always has its
causes and conditions, and those causes and conditions can be
treated given a proper way... like a doctor treating
patients.
At this point I just recalled something Thusness said in 2007 -
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/262408
"Spontaneous arising cannot be taught first. You cannot tell people
things just happen by itself. You cannot tell people to practise
this way. Only after certain stage, when a person has seen
non-duality, experienced the luminosity, experienced the passing
and dissolving away, you can tell them. Because it is leading
towards that already. But before that, if you tell them, they are
being controlled by the momentum, merely swopped away only.
It is very dangerous to tell people to just relax. Why do person
said that? Because they failed to see the strength of what I call,
pre-consciousness, the strength of propensities. You see what I
mean? When you tell or teach a person just relax lah, just let
everything manifest. You cant. A person that does this probably
turns to being ultimate slacker. Didnt do anything. {laugh} Rather
than practising, he is digging his own grave you know, enhancing
the momentum.
Why spontaneous arising is for a person that has understood
(reality)... especially that he has gone through non-duality. He
can do spontaneous arising. He can practise spontaneous arising.
Why is this so? Because once a person enters into non-duality, the
bond of the Self is already gone. A big chunk of the bond, the
Self-propensities are already gone. And when this self propensities
is gone, the energy turning against itself is being released, and
work for itself. It does not die, you know. It is just released and
then works for itself, rather than turning against itself. So only
a person that has understood and experienced non-duality, it is
better for him to penetrate spontaneous arising, to practice this
way. Because can see.. {inaudible} there is no need to respond
anything. Do you get what I mean? But if lets say you do not see
it, like I said that everything is the Mind, but you did not see
that everything is the Mind then you start to say dont need to do
anything, you are letting your momentum take..."
IMO, not only must one realize non-duality, one must realize and
actualize the wisdom of twofold emptiness (anatta and emptiness),
then our path becomes one of spontaneous appearance and spontaneous
release/liberation. At this point there is no effort or
contrivance, all are realized to be luminous emptiness, like the
shimmering of the mirage of sun on water - illusory, coreless,
self-releasing and doesn't leave any trace.
But to tell everyone "getting lost in thoughts are ok, you are just
fine/perfect as you are, just relax and let be" - if that person
has not woken up to his real nature and actualized the twofold
emptiness, this is "being controlled by the momentum, merely
swopped away only", "digging his own grave you know, enhancing the
momentum".
Transcript of the Lankavatara Sutra sharing by Thusness -
SgForums.com
sgforums.com
Still remember we had a Lankavatara Sutra sharing session by
Thusness in the beginning part of the year? (6th January 2007)
Well, since I am a fast typer, I decided to type out everything
that is said by ...
52 minutes ago · Like ·
AEN I was reminded of what Longchenpa said:
In Ati these days, conceited elephants [claim]
the mass of discursive concepts is awakened mind
(bodhicitta);
this confusion is a dimension of complete darkness,
a hindrance to the meaning of the natural great perfection.
13 minutes ago · Like
AEN Today Thusness asked me a question after I sent someone by
email a reply regarding if robots can produce consciousness.
He said:
"What u wrote here is better but u must also understand how does
the realization of anatta help you on the path of right practice.
What exactly hv u learnt from this insight of no-self and how does
this realization help? Do not keep repeating "in thinking, no
thinker" or sprout phrases like "self liberates upon inception" as
if there is nothing do or practice becomes a total
irrelevance.
There is no unchanging, inherent, independent agent apart from the
aggregates, then how should practice be? Do nothing and everything
self liberates? Is this right understanding?
If there is truly an independent unchanging agent then practice
would be by way of disassociation and keeping the mirror bright but
that is not the case so how should u go forward?"
I said:
"The insight of no-self removes contraction, identification, allows
you to drop any attachment to a Self, Awareness, or even a
Body-mind, by seeing their insubstantiality – there isn’t a real
self, awareness, body or mind to grasp. Conceptual thoughts and
constructs (such as seer seeing the seen) are replaced with direct
perception. When one actualizes the twofold emptiness wisdom in
everyday life, we also learn to drop the ‘mine’ aspect.
The practice is simply in actualizing wisdom of twofold emptiness
in every moment... otherwise nothing is liberated, there is always
more traces, more clinging, more proliferation. That means all
trace of self and conceptions of anything inherent must be burnt
away in rigpa moment to moment...
In short constantly opening or releasing any delusion of inherent
self, agent, or ground or ‘thingness’.... in seeing just the seen
(no self, agent, or object), replacing the sense of self with just
the one action of D.O."
AEN There is no 'awareness being unaffected by thoughts'... that
too is an illusion. As Thusness pointed out, "If there is truly an
independent unchanging agent then practice would be by way of
disassociation and keeping the mirror bright but that is not the
case so how should u go forward?" He also wrote:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html
For those masters that taught,
“Let thoughts arise and subside,
See the background mirror as perfect and be unaffected.”
With all due respect, they have just “blah” something nice but
deluded.
Rather,
See that there is no one behind thoughts.
First, one thought then another thought.
With deepening insight it will later be revealed,
Always just this, One Thought!
Non-arising, luminous yet empty!
Awakening to Reality: On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and
Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfect
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com