Discussion with Thusness in 2008:
(8:09 PM) Thusness: What about the stuff Element
said?
(8:10 PM) AEN: he speaks about mindfulness as if
something we can direct according to our intentions
(8:10 PM) AEN: but i tink mindfulness is more
like waking up from our conceptualization process to what is
present
(8:11 PM) AEN: ya and he said mindfulness is like
a supervisor
(8:11 PM) AEN: like watching the mind or
something
(8:12 PM) Thusness: mindfulness as
recollection
(8:12 PM) Thusness: but he further clarifies
mindfulness as remembering to be in the present moment.
(8:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:13 PM) Thusness: so what has that got to do
with the 3 seals?
(8:14 PM) AEN: the present moment exhibits 3
seals?
(8:14 PM) Thusness: and he brought up a very
important topic, 'oneness vs dispassionate'
(8:15 PM) AEN: oic ya actually i think its the
same
(8:15 PM) AEN: i wanted to reply yesterday but no
time, but i saved some of the things i wrote... going to edit
first
(8:15 PM) AEN: haven edited
(8:19 PM) Thusness: first tell me more about
mindfulness
(8:20 PM) AEN: hmm wat about it
(8:20 PM) Thusness: what can u learn from Element
and what you know
(8:21 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:21 PM) AEN: mindfulness is like recollecting
what is present?
(8:22 PM) Thusness: how can u recollect what is
present?
(8:23 PM) AEN: means not forgetting present
moment and getting lost in thoughts?
(8:23 PM) Thusness: no
(8:24 PM) AEN: recollecting just means paying
attention?
(8:24 PM) Thusness: no
(8:25 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:25 PM) AEN: means focusing on an object and
keeping it in mind?
(8:25 PM) Thusness: no
(8:26 PM) AEN: dunnu leh
(8:26 PM) AEN: lol
(8:27 PM) Thusness: mindfulness is a form of
practice
(8:27 PM) AEN: by noticing that you are not
present?
(8:27 PM) Thusness: what is so great about being
'Now'?
(8:28 PM) AEN: because 'now' is the only
reality?
(8:28 PM) Thusness: so what is so great about
'Reality'?
(8:29 PM) AEN: its clear and liberating?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: ???
(8:30 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: Buddha tell u that being in
the 'Now' moment u will be liberated?
(8:30 PM) AEN: no
(8:30 PM) Thusness: then why u say that?
(8:31 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:31 PM) AEN: by clearly perceiving the true
nature of the 'now' moment then there is liberation?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: no such thing.
(8:31 PM) AEN: icic
(8:31 PM) Thusness: It was derived.
(8:32 PM) Thusness: By some practitioners and
masters.
(8:32 PM) AEN: being "now" means going pre
symbolic?
(8:32 PM) AEN: oic
(8:33 PM) Thusness: first Element spoke about
recollection.
(8:33 PM) Thusness: is mindfulness about
recollection?
(8:33 PM) Thusness: or being pre-conceptual and
bare.
(8:33 PM) AEN: i tink all?
(8:33 PM) Thusness: all as in?
(8:34 PM) AEN: its recollection, pre conceptual
and bare
(8:34 PM) Thusness: meaning?
(8:34 PM) AEN: ven gunaratana said
(8:34 PM) AEN:
(A) Mindfulness reminds you of what you are supposed to be doing .
In meditation, you put your attention on one item. When your mind
wanders from this focus, it is Mindfulness that reminds you that
your mind is wandering and what you are supposed to be doing. It is
Mindfulness that brings your mind back to the object of meditation.
All of this occurs instantaneously and without internal dialogue.
Mindfulness is not thinking. Repeated practice in meditation
establishes this function as a mental habit which then carries over
into the rest of your life. A serious meditator pays bare attention
to occurrences all the time, day in, day out, whether formally
sitting in meditation or not. This is a very lofty ideal towards
which those who meditate may be working for a period of years or
even decades. Our habit of getting stuck in thought is years old,
and that habit will hang on in the most tenacious manner. The only
way out is to be equally persistent in the cultivation of constant
Mindfulness. When Mindfulness is present, you will notice when you
become stuck in your thought patterns. It
(8:34 PM) AEN: It is that very noticing
which allows you to back out of the thought process and free
yourself from it. Mindfulness then returns your attention to its
proper focus. If you are meditating at that moment, then your focus
will be the formal object of meditation. If your are not in formal
meditation, it will be just a pure application of bare attention
itself, just a pure noticing of whatever comes up without getting
involved--"Ah, this comes up...and now this, and now this... and
now this".
Mindfulness is at one and the same time both bare attention itself
and the function of reminding us to pay bare attention if we have
ceased to do so. Bare attention is noticing. It re- establishes
itself simply by noticing that it has not been present. As soon as
you are noticing that you have not been noticing, then by
definition you are noticing and then you are back again to paying
bare attention.
Mindfulness creates its own distinct feeling in consciousness. It
has a flavor--a light, clear, energetic flavor. Conscious thought
is heavy by comparison, ponderous and picky. But here again, these
a
(8:35 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:35 PM) AEN: mindfulness becomes a mental
habit?
(8:35 PM) Thusness: mindfulness leading to
enlightenment?
(8:35 PM) AEN: huh
(8:36 PM) AEN: i mean mindfulness serves as
recollection when it becomes a mental habit?
(8:36 PM) Thusness: What is the relationship
between Mindfulness and Enlightenment?
(8:37 PM) AEN: u need mindfulness to see things
as they are, like perceive the 3 characteristics
(8:38 PM) Thusness: closer...what is
mindfulness?
(8:38 PM) AEN: means bare attention?
(8:38 PM) Thusness: bare is pre-symbolic like
being naked in awareness.
(8:39 PM) AEN: icic ya
(8:40 PM) Thusness: now getting back to where u
stop after ur mind wonders is not the purpose of mindfulness.
(8:40 PM) Thusness: every form of meditation
requires us to do that.
(8:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:40 PM) AEN: so u mean
(8:40 PM) AEN: mindfulness is not
recollection?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: u do not recollect present
moment
(8:41 PM) AEN: icic
(8:41 PM) Thusness: what has it got to do with
the 3 characteristics?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: the seals?
(8:42 PM) AEN: recollecting itself does not mean
one perceives 3 characteristics
(8:42 PM) AEN: but only when one becomes
observant
(8:42 PM) Thusness: ai yoo...
(8:42 PM) Thusness: Buddha spoke of the dharma
seals.
(8:43 PM) Thusness: sounded simple but difficult
to understand
(8:43 PM) Thusness: we cannot understand the
wisdom behind it
(8:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:44 PM) Thusness: mindfulness has several
characteristics
(8:44 PM) Thusness: in which bare attention or
being naked and non-conceptual awareness is important
(8:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:45 PM) Thusness: 2nd is it must remind
(not recollect)
(8:45 PM) Thusness: remind of what?
(8:45 PM) AEN: present moment? or what you are
doing?
(8:46 PM) AEN: like breathing meditation then
remind of that
(8:46 PM) Thusness: no
(8:46 PM) Thusness: what is there to remind
(8:46 PM) Thusness: when u r bare in attention, u
r in the present
(8:46 PM) AEN: ya the reminding serves its
purpose only when one becomes lost in thoughts, i tink
(8:46 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:47 PM) AEN: so u're saying reminding = being
bare in attention?
(8:47 PM) Thusness: told u that is in all
practices
(8:47 PM) Thusness: nothing to talk about.
(8:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:47 PM) Thusness: remind u constantly of the
dharma seals.
(8:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:47 PM) Thusness: when u r bare in attention,
does it mean that u know the dharma seals?
(8:48 PM) Thusness: when u r in non-dual, does it
mean that u know the 3 characteristics?
(8:48 PM) AEN: i thinks perceiving 3
characteristics is also a matter of clarity?
(8:48 PM) Thusness: all experiences are distorted
due to ignorance and propensities.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: for u, u say u r Eternal
Witness as if u r constant and everything flow even now.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: Even after reading so much
and countless conversation with me.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: so isn't it not clear
yet?
(8:49 PM) AEN: oic
(8:50 PM) AEN: so being bare in attention doesnt
mean one perceives the 3 characteristics
(8:50 PM) AEN: bcos of propensities?
(8:50 PM) Thusness: even now...even after years
of reading and summarizing and discussions?
(8:50 PM) Thusness: yes
(8:50 PM) Thusness: we do not know
(8:50 PM) Thusness: therefore we need to remind
ourselves of the seals.
(8:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:50 PM) Thusness: why?
(8:51 PM) Thusness: because insight and wisdom
have not arisen.
(8:51 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:51 PM) Thusness: therefore u practice
mindfulness
(8:51 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:52 PM) Thusness: u attempt to become
non-conceptual, bare but the experience will still be
distorted.
(8:53 PM) Thusness: now observing phenomena,
seeing them arise and pass away, 'dispassionate' arise
(8:53 PM) Thusness: does that mean that u seek
what that does not arise and pass away?
(8:54 PM) AEN: depends on whether propensities is
reacting?
(8:54 PM) AEN: or whether theres right
understandin'g
(8:54 PM) Thusness: right understanding means u
seek or don't seek?
(8:54 PM) AEN: dont seek
(8:54 PM) Thusness: so what is important?
(8:55 PM) AEN: insight?
(8:55 PM) Thusness: insight into what?
(8:55 PM) AEN: the 3 seals?
(8:55 PM) Thusness: or our empty nature
(8:55 PM) Thusness: we come to that later
(8:55 PM) AEN: icic
(8:57 PM) Thusness: This is very important.
(8:58 PM) Thusness: emphasized the 3
characteristics in vipassana because their clear seeing causes
something called dispassion and dispassion is the cause of
Nibbana.
(8:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:00 PM) Thusness: Remember wat I told u and
truth about becoming so sick that u gave up everything?
(9:00 PM) Thusness: suffering causes so much pain
that u gave up?
(9:01 PM) AEN: not so sure :P
(9:03 PM) Thusness: go and read what i told Isis
also.
(9:03 PM) Thusness: and all the discussions about
mindfulness relates to what I told u about the 2 practices i told u
to do.
(9:04 PM) AEN: dropping and self inquiry?
(9:05 PM) Thusness: if u can understand what i
said and the purpose, u will know what i meant and what i am trying
to teach u from beginning.
(9:05 PM) Thusness: that is continue to recall
and summarize non-dual and emptiness
(9:06 PM) Thusness: to have clarity in concepts
and the meaning of it.
(9:06 PM) Thusness: to have the non-dual
experience
(9:06 PM) Thusness: and lastly dropping
(9:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:07 PM) AEN: by recall u mean
mindfulness?
(9:07 PM) AEN: btw wat did u tell issi
(9:07 PM) AEN: *isis
(9:08 PM) Thusness: dropping is about dispassion
but it is not about dispassion but to arise a total willingness to
let go.
(9:08 PM) Thusness: because grasping is 'self' in
disguise.
(9:08 PM) Thusness: but non-dual experience will
not be understood in terms of the 3 characteristics
(9:08 PM) Thusness: in terms of its empty
nature
(9:11 PM) AEN: means one can have the experience
of dispassion through dropping but not comprehending the 3 seals or
emptiness?
(9:11 PM) Thusness: so bare and being
non-conceptual will not allow u to have the right experience of non
duality
(9:11 PM) AEN: icic
(9:11 PM) AEN: that is through recollecting or
being mindful of the 3 seals right
(9:11 PM) AEN: or vipassana
(9:11 PM) AEN: *reminding
(9:12 PM) Thusness: vipassana must go with right
view
(9:12 PM) AEN: icic
(9:17 PM) Thusness: So what are the purposes of
the 3 practices?
(9:19 PM) AEN: dropping is to give rise to the
total willingness to let go of the self, vipassana is to give rise
to the insight of the 3 seals or emptiness, self inquiry is the
experience the "I AM" and show how strong the propensity is?
(9:20 PM) Thusness: It is like the
dispassion. That is very important.
(9:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:21 PM) Thusness: Oneness is very important
too.
(9:21 PM) Thusness: Or non-dual luminosity
:)
(9:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:21 PM) AEN: thats experienced through
vipassana rite?
(9:22 PM) Thusness: Understand oneness from DO
perspective.
(9:23 PM) Thusness: And non-dual presence through
right view and experience of presence.
(9:24 PM) AEN: oic
(9:25 PM) Thusness: These 3 aspects must go hand
in hand
(9:25 PM) Thusness: There is no point
arguing
(9:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:26 PM) Thusness: There can be no true
understanding of Buddha's teachings without non-dual insight.
(9:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:28 PM) Thusness: To understand the 3
relationships, u need to practice hard
(9:29 PM) Thusness: Don't be afraid of right
views.
(9:29 PM) AEN: wat u mean by afraid of right
views
(9:29 PM) Thusness: It will help.
(9:29 PM) AEN: u mean dont be afraid of having
(right) views?
(9:30 PM) Thusness: Don't be trapped by
non-conceptuality
(9:30 PM) AEN: oic
(9:30 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:32 PM) Thusness: Having right views will sync
non-dual luminosity with that 'dispassion' (total willingness to
let go)
(9:33 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:33 PM) Thusness: The experience of Presence
and non-dual experience can lead to very strong attachment of the
Ultimate Reality
(9:34 PM) AEN: even after realising non
duality?
(9:34 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:34 PM) Thusness: But not anatta
(9:34 PM) AEN: oic
(9:34 PM) AEN: y attachment
(9:35 PM) Thusness: because of ignorance
(9:35 PM) AEN: icic
(9:35 PM) Thusness: Of our empty nature
(9:36 PM) Thusness: Therefore advaita is not
Buddhism
(9:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:36 PM) AEN: btw buddha say dispassion is
linked to disenchantment is linked to insight
(9:36 PM) AEN: "Dispassion, monks, also has a
supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting
condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion?
'Disenchantment' should be the reply.
"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it
does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting
condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things
as they really are' should be the reply.
(9:37 PM) Thusness: The arising of 'dispassion'
is very important but must be correctly understood
(9:37 PM) AEN: icic
(9:38 PM) Thusness: U should take that para
seriously
(9:39 PM) Thusness: But Oneness and non-dual
should not be overlooked.
(9:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:40 PM) Thusness: Missing either one, missed
the point.
(9:41 PM) Thusness: Therefore the 3 things I told
u.
(9:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:42 PM) AEN: wat are the 3 things
(9:44 PM) Thusness: U tell me.
(9:45 PM) AEN: dispassion, oneness, DO?
(9:46 PM) Thusness: What I tell u to
practice?
(9:50 PM) AEN: dropping, vipassana, self
inquiry?
(9:51 PM) Thusness: Summary of non-duality and
emptiness
(9:52 PM) Thusness: Having right view
(9:52 PM) Thusness: How many times must I tell
U?
(9:53 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:54 PM) Thusness: Without the right view, even
with non-dual experience, wisdom of nature will not arise.
(9:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:56 PM) AEN: so the 3 are dropping, non dual
presence, and summarising?
(9:57 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:15 PM) AEN: what is the difference between
non dual and anatta
(10:19 PM) Thusness: It is the right
understanding of non-dual experience free from the subject/Object
and inherent views.
(10:20 PM) AEN: icic
(10:20 PM) AEN: that means one can realise
pathless non dual but yet not be free from subject/object and
inherent views?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: Huh?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: I hv written and told u so
many times
(10:23 PM) Thusness: then what is emptiness
for?
(10:26 PM) AEN: oic
(10:26 PM) AEN: but can u realise non dual and
yet not be free from subject/object views?
(10:26 PM) AEN: or u mean inherency
(10:27 PM) Thusness: Yes
(10:27 PM) AEN: icic
(10:27 PM) Thusness: U can have non dual
experience but not non-dual insight
(10:28 PM) AEN: so anatta actually includes
understanding of DO and emptiness rite
(10:28 PM) AEN: non dual insight u mean insight
into pathless nonduality or insight into anatta
(10:28 PM) Thusness: Which is clarity of what is
the nature of our pristine awareness
(10:28 PM) Thusness: It is the same.
(10:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:29 PM) Thusness: when one spoke of no-self,
one says there is no subject/Object split
(10:30 PM) Thusness: One understands
(10:30 PM) Thusness: One realises that there Isn'
t such a split.
(10:31 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:32 PM) Thusness: But doesn't mean there is
clarity
(10:32 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:37 PM) Thusness: Advaita realises that there
is no split.
(10:37 PM) Thusness: But the grasping of the
source is still there.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: However in anatta there is
no grasping of anything.
(10:38 PM) AEN: how to grasp source when its
realised to be all manifestation
(10:42 PM) Thusness: as long as one is under the
propensity of Self, there is grasping of permanence.
(10:43 PM) AEN: oic ya even sailor bob adamson
talks about awareness as permanent/changeless
(10:44 PM) AEN: though he said "everything in
essence is that changeless natural knowing--nothing else"
(10:45 PM) Thusness: Although the experience is
there, one is unable to fully go beyond this dualistic bond.
(10:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness: Thus it is subtle and
deep.
(10:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:46 PM) Thusness: The real essence that is
empty of inherent existence is the cause of non-dual insight
(10:48 PM) Thusness: the practitioner will not be
able to overcome that bond
(10:49 PM) Thusness: Even after the non-dual
experience
(10:49 PM) Thusness: Even after deep
experience
(10:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:51 PM) Thusness: Unless that
inherent/dualistic view Is completely replaced in its inmost
level
(10:51 PM) AEN: through emptiness?
(10:52 PM) Thusness: Therefore I said there is a
desync
(10:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:53 PM) Thusness: Unable to go beyond it,
practitioner prefer to rest in naked awareness
(10:54 PM) Thusness: The grasping will still be
there because the root cause is still there.
(10:54 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:54 PM) AEN: grasping on what
(10:54 PM) AEN: source?
(10:55 PM) Thusness: But one having non-dual and
realises our emptiness nature is not afraid of having right
view.
(10:55 PM) Thusness: Yes source.
(10:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:56 PM) Thusness: But understand that it is a
raft that serves as the antidote to dissolve inherent view.
(10:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:58 PM) Thusness: From it one gradually
replaces inherent view and experiences nonlocality
(10:59 PM) AEN: means no sense of 'being
here'?
(10:59 PM) Thusness: Because there is no need to
hold on to anything in the deepest level.
(10:59 PM) AEN: icic
(10:59 PM) Thusness: No this nor that
(10:59 PM) Thusness: Here nor there
(11:00 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:00 PM) Thusness: Dissolve any inherent view,
there is no returning nor going
(11:01 PM) Thusness: The experience of non-dual
is refined
(11:01 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:01 PM) Thusness: The source is dropped
(11:01 PM) AEN: btw u realised DO/emptiness by
contemplating on the buddha's verse 'this is, that is'?
(11:01 PM) AEN: oic
(11:02 PM) Thusness: No
(11:02 PM) AEN: oic then
(11:02 PM) Thusness: Because there is the
truthfulness in me...Hehe
(11:03 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(11:03 PM) Thusness: My non-dual stage 5 does not
sync in terms of view
(11:05 PM) Thusness: Therefore I continue to have
further clarity in non-dual experience and compare with Buddha's
teachings
(11:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:06 PM) AEN: u read the sutras?
(11:06 PM) Thusness: When deep in my I require no
more subject/Object framework, my luminosity becomes clear.
(11:07 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:08 PM) Thusness: I can see the teachings with
deeper clarity.
(11:09 PM) Thusness: There is no holding of any
views
(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:10 PM) Thusness: It is just intuiting it is
so.
(11:10 PM) AEN: oic..
