Mahayana sutras origin discussion

last SG · 2011-10-11T23:42:45+00:00

you shouldnt even have concept of Mahayana's aspiration. if you aspire to be a Buddha, there shouldnt be any differentiation of great or lesser vehicle. you...

Aik TC SG

Ah yes. Theravada does not believe in 'revealed teachings', only the historical Buddha.

Mahayana Buddhists don't take such stance.

Yes, this topic on texts that come from ‘revelation’ is quite a controversial subject. I have come across remarks from fundamentalist Buddhists who believe that the Pali Suttas are the only true recorded words of the Buddha. All others Buddhist texts are just superstition, papanca and not to be believed. These would mean most, if not all of the Mahayanist Sutras that we know of, as most can be considered to be ‘revealed’ texts.

Rooney9 SG

If you can have faith in Mahayana, that is best, but if not, just be open minded and practice hard so that when wisdom arise, you will be able to discern truth for yourself.

I have faith with what the Buddha taught and expounded. to me, labels like mahayana or theravada doesnt exists. I believe truth or reality has no distinctions, as one and all.

Rooney9 SG

the reason is this. Buddha is the ultimate. after his demise, who can verify these visions? but I have a question though. Why didnt the Buddha foretold about the split and gave instructions on visions for the benefit of future generations in time to come? if he has detailed this, then there would not no quarrels whatsover on the visions.

An Eternal Now SG

I, being a Mahayana Buddhist, have no problems with their claims that only the Pali suttas are the true recorded words of the Historical Buddha.

And yes, Mahayana Sutras are at most "revealed texts".

But they certainly are not (to me) superstitions but are derived from pure visions and wisdom.

In other words since we accept the three kayas and the validity of not just Nirmanakaya appearance of Buddha, we can accept the validity of Mahayana scriptures being taught in pure visions.

Rooney9 SG

I, being a Mahayana Buddhist, have no problems with their claims that only the Pali suttas are the true recorded words of the Historical Buddha.

And yes, Mahayana Sutras are at most "revealed texts".

But they certainly are not (to me) superstitions but are derived from pure visions and wisdom.

In other words since we accept the three kayas and the validity of not just Nirmanakaya appearance of Buddha, we can accept the validity of Mahayana scriptures being taught in pure visions.

my second question is this, yes there are alot of things the Buddha did not teach, but then if it is important and beneficial, why didnt he teach it during his 45 years of expounding the dhamma? surely he has strived so hard to practise the perfections in order to be a Buddha, the ultimate a person can strive, so that he is able to teach and guide sentient beings the dhamma. I still cant think of a reason for the Buddha not to teach this in his 45 years of propulgating the dhamma.

An Eternal Now SG

There is only so much he could teach in a brief period of time, and he only teaches things that he has conditions to teach.

I.e. he usually only teaches the dharma that he is requested to teach.

Rooney9 SG

There is only so much he could teach in a brief period of time, and he only teaches things that he has conditions to teach.

I.e. he usually only teaches the dharma that he is requested to teach.

45 years is quite long to expound the dhamma. anyway back to my first question, if he was able to clarify and gave instructions on what the visions are for the benefit of future generations to come before his demise, then there will not be so much quarrels and disagreements isnt it. by the way did he mentioned on the split into theravada, mahayana etc?

An Eternal Now SG

The problem with prophecies is that they can be manipulated, misunderstood, or abused. It may be a good thing the Buddha did not speak so much about the future.

See how many false Maitreyas there are in this world.

sinweiy SG

the common prophecies in Mahayana is the Three Ages of 1) the Orthodox Dharma Age, 2) The Dharma Image/Semblance Age, and 3) the Dharma-Ending Age.

Alas! In the evil time
Of the Dharma-Ending Age,
Living beings' blessings are slight,
It is difficult to train them.
Far indeed from the sages of the past!
Their deviant views are deep.
Demons are strong, the Dharma is weak;
Many are the wrongs and injuries.
Hearing the door of the Thus Come One's sudden teaching,
They hate not destroying it as they would smash a tile.
The doing is in the mind;
The body suffers the calamities.
There's no need for unjust accusations that shift the blame to others.
If you don't wish to invite the karma of the unintermittent [hell],
Do not slander the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.
(SE 62-63)

The Dharma-Ending Age is the last of the Three Ages of Dharma, during which the understanding and practice of the Buddha-dharma gradually declines and finally disappears. The Three Ages are 1) the Orthodox Dharma Age, 2) The Dharma Image/Semblance Age, and 3) the Dharma-Ending Age.

"The era when the Buddha dwelled in the world was called the Orthodox Dharma Age. At that time the Buddha taught the Dharma, and there were genuine Arhats and great Bodhisattvas; the sages were dwelling in the world. The Orthodox Dharma Age lasted for one thousand years. The Dharma-Image Age followed--after the Buddha entered nirvana. During this period, people who cultivated the Way were few; those who were attached to external appearances were many. People stressed the creation of Buddha-images and many were made, but genuine cultivators were few.

"After the Dharma-Image Age came the Dharma-Ending age. The Orthodox Dharma Age lasted for one thousand years. The DharmaÄ Image Age lasted another one thousand years. That is two thousand years in all. The Dharma-Ending age continues for ten thousand years. We are now living in the Dharma-Ending Age. What does the phrase 'Dharma-ending' mean? It means that the Dharma has nearly come to an end and is about to disappear. The 'disappearance' of the Buddhadharma involves disappearance of faith in the Buddha. In the Dharma-Ending Age living beings' faith in the Buddha is not firm. When the Buddha dwelled in the world,peoples' faith was so firm that if you held a person at knife-point and threatened his life saying, 'Renounce your belief in the Buddha or I'll murder you,' he would rather die than surrender his belief. . . .

"In the Dharma-Image Age things were different. If a person believed in the Buddha and someone said, 'If you believe in the Buddha, I'll kill you,' he would say, 'Fine, I won't believe in the Buddha.' People would change their minds because their faith was not firm.

"Now, in the Dharma-Ending Age, you don't even have to threaten a person with death. You merely have to say, 'Don't believe in the Buddha,' and they quickly reply, 'Fine'. . . . It is very difficult to promote faith. Figure it out for yourself. How many people are there in the world? Among the entire human race, how many believe in the Buddha? You can lecture the Sutras to those believers every day and they will still waver between doubt and faith. You can conduct a small experiment. Try this. Invite a person out to a movie. He'll accept on the spot and away you go. Then try asking him to a Sutra lecture. He will say, 'Ohhh . . . sitting there for two hours is nothing but suffering and tedium. It's not half as much fun as a movie!' That is the Dharma-Ending Age for you." (BRF 17-18)

Thus I have heard. At one time the Buddha was in the state of Kushinagara. The Tathagata was to enter Nirvana within three months and the bhikshus and Bodhisattvas as well as the great multitude of beings had come to the Buddha to pay homage to the Buddha and to bow in reverence. The World Honored One was tranquil and silent. He spoke not a word and his light did not appear. Worthy Ananda bowed and asked the Buddha, "O Bhagavan, heretofore whenever you spoke the Dharma, awesome light would naturally appear. Yet today among this great assembly there is no such radiance. There must be a good cause for this, and we wish to hear the Bhagavan's explanation."

The Buddha remained silent and did not answer until the request had been repeated three times. He then told Ananda, "After I enter Nirvana, when the Dharma is about to perish, during the Evil Age of the Five Turbidities (see Five Turbidities), the way of demons will flourish. Demonic beings will become Shramanas (see entry); they will pervert and destroy my teachings. Wearing the garb of lay persons, they will prefer handsome clothes and their precept sashes will be made of multi-colored cloth. They will use intoxicants, eat meat, kill other beings, and they will indulge their desire for flavorful food. They will lack compassion and they will bear hatred and jealousy even among themselves.

"At that time there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will reverently and diligently cultivate immaculate virtue. They will be respected by all people and their teachings will be fair and egalitarian. These cultivators of the Way will take pity on the poor, they will be mindful of the aged, and they will save and give counsel to those people they find in difficult circumstances. They will at all times exhort others to worship and to protect the sutras and images of the Buddha. They will do meritorious deeds, be resolute and kind and never harm others. They will forsake their bodies for others' benefit. They will hold no great regard for themselves but will be patient, yielding, humane, and peaceful.

"If such people exist, the hordes of demonic bhikshus will be jealous of them. The demons will harass them, slander and defame them, expel them from their midst and degrade them. They will ostracize the good monks from the monastic community. Thereafter these demons will not cultivate the Way-virtue. Their temples and monastic buildings will be vacant and overgrown with weeds. For want of care and maintenance their Way-places will drift into ruin and oblivion. The demonic bhikshus will only be greedy for wealth and will amass great heaps of goods. They will refuse to distribute any of it or to use it to gain blessings and virtue.

"At this time, the evil monks will buy and sell slaves to till their fields and to slash and burn the mountain forests. They will do harm to living creatures and they will feel not the least bit of compassion. These slaves will themselves become bhikshus and maidservants will become bhikshunis. Totally lacking in any Way-virtue, these people will run amok, indulging in licentious behavior. In their turbid confusion they will fail to separate the men from the women in the monastic communities. From this generation on, the Way will be weakened. Fugitives from the law will seek refuge in my Way, wishing to become Shramanas but failing to observe the moral regulations. The precepts will continue to be recited twice a month, but in name alone. Being lazy and lax, no one will want to listen any longer. These evil Shramanas will be unwilling to recite the sutras in their entirety and they will make abbreviations at the beginning and at the end of the texts as they please. Soon the practice of reciting sutras will stop altogether. Even if there are people who recite texts, they will be unlettered, unqualified people who will insist, nonetheless, that they are correct. Bumptious, arrogant and vain, these people will seek fame and glory. They will display elegant airs in the hope of attracting offerings from other people.

"When the lives of these demonic bhikshus come to an end their essential spirits will fall into the avici hells. Having committed the five evil sins, they will suffer successive rebirths as hungry ghosts and as animals. They will know all such states of woe as they pass on through aeons as numerous as sands on the banks of the Ganges River. When their offenses are accounted for they will be reborn in a border land where the Triple Jewel is unknown.

"When the Dharma is about to disappear, women will become vigorous and will at all times do deeds of virtue. Men will grow lax and will no longer speak the Dharma. Those genuine Shramanas they see will be looked upon as dung and no one will have faith in them. When the Dharma is about to perish, all the gods will begin to weep. Rivers will dry up and the five grains will not ripen. Epidemic diseases will frequently take the lives of multitudes of people. The masses will toil and suffer while the local officials will plot and scheme. No one will adhere to principles. Instead, all people will be ever more numerous like the sands of the ocean-bed. Good persons will be hard to find; at most there will be one or two. As the aeon comes to a close, the revolution of the sun and the moon will grow short and the lifespan of people will decrease. Their hair will turn white at the age of forty years. Because of excessive licentious behavior they will quickly exhaust their seminal fluids and will die at a young age, usually before sixty years. As the life-span of males decreases, that of females will increase to seventy, eighty, ninety, or one hundred years.

"The great rivers will rise up in disharmony with their natural cycles, yet people will not take notice or feel concern. Extremes of climate will soon be taken for granted. . . .

"Then there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will gather together in an unprecedented assembly because they will have all been harried and pursued by hordes of demons. They will no longer dwell in the assemblies, but the Three Vehicles will retreat to the wilderness. In a tranquil place, they will find shelter, happiness, and long life. Gods will protect them and the moon will shine down upon them. The Three Vehicles will have an opportunity to meet together and the way will flourish. However, within fifty-two years the and the , the Standing Buddha Samadhi, will be the first to change and then disappear. The twelve divisions of the canon will gradually follow until they vanish completely, never to appear again. Its words and texts will be totally unknown ever after. The precept sashes of Shramanas will turn white of themselves. When my Dharma disappears, it will be just like an oil lamp which flares brightly for an instant just before it goes out. So too, will the Dharma flare and die. After this time it is difficult to speak with certainty of what will follow.

"So it will remain for the next ten million years. When Maitreya is about to appear in the world to become the next Buddha, the planet will be entirely peaceful. Evil vapors will have dissipated, rain will be ample and regular, the crops will grow abundantly. Trees will grow to a great height and people will grow to be eighty feet tall. The average lifespan will extend to 84,000 years. It will be impossible to count all the beings who will be taken across to liberation."

Worthy Ananda addressed the Buddha, "What should we call this Sutra and how shall we uphold it?"

The Buddha said, "Ananda, this Sutra is called . Tell everyone to propagate it widely; the merit of your actions will be measureless, beyond reckoning."

When the fourfold assembly of disciples heard this Sutra, they grieved and wept. Each of them resolved to attain the true Path of the Supreme Sage. Then bowing to the Buddha, they withdrew. (SS I xiv-xvi)

1) Ch. , 2) Skt. , 3) Pali .

Rooney9 SG

The problem with prophecies is that they can be manipulated, misunderstood, or abused. It may be a good thing the Buddha did not speak so much about the future.

See how many false Maitreyas there are in this world.

thats the problem. there is no one to verify on the visions of these enlightened master, if they are mara masquerading as masters? by the way who are these masters?

Buddha did said mara will infiltrate the sangha in future ages.

Rooney9 SG

The problem with prophecies is that they can be manipulated, misunderstood, or abused. It may be a good thing the Buddha did not speak so much about the future.

See how many false Maitreyas there are in this world.

we all know for the next buddha to be born, shakyamuni's dhamma need to be ended and wait for million of years to pass and for humans to grow up to eighty feet tall.

does the present era fulfil these conditions yet? now only 2,500 years has passed since the passing away of the Buddha, still a long way yet for the next buddha to arrive.

sinweiy SG

i think quite simple, "pure vision" (which to a logical person seem superstition) aside, either one believe the following or u don't. it clear the "thus i have heard" issue abit.

The Mahayana scriptures were probably set in writing around the 1st century BCE. Some of them, such as the Perfection of Wisdom sutras, are presented as actual sermons of the Buddha that would have been hidden. By some accounts, these sermons were passed on by the oral tradition as with other sutras, but other accounts state that they were hidden and then revealed several centuries later by some mythological route. In addition to sutras, some Mahayana texts are essentially commentaries.

i heard Padmasambhava蓮華生 also purposely hide special teaching like Phowa, which was later revealed to the follower when the timing is right. and as mentioned, some of the secret teachings are very abstract and profound and even contradict to the standard teaching. mixing them will create more confusions. so also a good idea to use One country(Buddhadharma), 'two' systems.

Rooney9 SG

Sorry I am not being difficult here. I disagreed.

The Buddha has said he has not hidden or withhold teaching the dhamma. whatever need to be expounded, he has taught it in his 45 years of expounding the dhamma. so this sound like contradiction to what the Buddha said actually. I am wondering which masters actually attributed the mahayana sutras to that of the Buddha.

sinweiy SG

from my understanding of the Handful of Simsapa Leaves, the Buddha had indeed passed out ALL the necessary teachings for liberation(including Mahasanghika /Mahayana, since it was as early). so the one assembled inside the cave, more authentic, while the one assembled outside the cave were not so authentic?

Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, “What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?”
“The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous.”
“In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven’t I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them.
(Source: Access to Insight)

Rooney9 SG

from my understanding of the Handful of Simsapa Leaves, the Buddha had indeed passed out ALL the necessary teachings for liberation(including Mahayana).

you said it yourself. there are a hell of a vast knowledge in the universe, like cosmology, physics, dark matter, atoms, etc. all this does not lead to cessation and enlightenment.

whylikethatah SG

thats the problem. there is no one to verify on the visions of these enlightened master, if they are mara masquerading as masters? by the way who are these masters?

Buddha did said mara will infiltrate the sangha in future ages.

ahh...good point that we all must always keep in mind

i'm wary of what people say, especially those who teach or proclaim to be enlightened, whether they may hail from this forum or others

reborn76 SG

ya. one last thing is this. since it was not taught by the Buddha, how are you going to explain to historians to say this sutra was taught by the original Buddha?

Hi Rooney

In Scholar Buddhist study, it is generally recognise that certain incident in Buddhist sutra is historical and certain events is purely symbolic in nature. Example, the schism of Devadatta is historical. As mentioned by Gene Reeves, The Lotus Sutra as Radically World Affirming, "certain supernatural scene in Lotus Sutra is symbolical. The function is primarily to open up the reader's life to affirm certain value and practice as a Bodhisattva in this world."

Certain Sutra such as Amitabha was look upon as literal figure especially Chinese society, due to our heritage. As in the past, the Chinese monastery was as a academic university recognise by the Chinese court. However, as world civilisation advance more scholarly work was needed. The western scholar were the first to carry out studies based on archaelogy finding, historical value, language, culture and influence on the society. Subsequently, the Japanese Buddhist scholar follow the western methodology in verifying the Sutra instead of taking thing literally as it is. Master Sheng Yen, foresee that such studies was necessary therefore he was one of the pioneer to travel to Japan university to study. In the end, he together with the pioneers brought back this method to Taiwan.

Therefore, is Mahanyana scripture valid, we need to use the above scholar premises to look at it. Secondly, is the positive experience people derive from it.

As Joseph Campbell has said, "Every religion is true one way or another. It is truen when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble."

For further reading, pls get hold of 聖嚴法師-基督教之研究 from Evergreen Bookshop. This book touch on how Taiwanese pastor has run down on Buddhist and how to defence it. One of the topic was Rooney question on Mahayana sutra validity.

Aik TC SG

My knowledge of the Pali Suttas is quite limited, but as far as I can recalled, there is hardly, if any on records of the Buddha speaking about future events to come. That’s where we find him remaining silent on such subjects as the four Inexpressibles. What we do find is about his visions of his past lives instead. You may have the notion of an Omniscience Buddha in the western context which would mean been able to see into the future. Really, if the Buddha can see into the future then there would be no need for religion at all, as he would be able to gives a blow by blow account of all that is going to happen in the future including when each of us individual will become enlightened.

When we talk about the future in a specific subject, it is always in reference to some past events that have happened. The future is nothing more than some past potential invisible elements waiting to be projected as future events itself. We can see it in the minutes and hours of a day, or the seasons in a year. There all there waiting to be projected into the present in a cyclic movement. It is like potential time waiting to be projected into space itself in some future time.

Who can verify the Buddha’s visions? You have to take all the writings in the Suttas and Sutras as authentic, especially the core teachings itself. FAITH is one of the most important element one must have if one is to embrace any religions not just Buddhism and grow spiritually with it. Without it, I do not think one can made much spiritual progress in one’s cultivation with the teachings. That’s where there are many different schools of thoughts within each religion itself catering to the various needs, different disposition and aspiration of as many individuals as there are in this world.

Split in the religion? Far from it, if Buddhism has not grown into what it is now with all the different schools of thoughts, what we would have now would be just followers of the Tharavada tradition. The rest of us would likely be followers of other Faiths by now.

An Eternal Now SG

ahh...good point that we all must always keep in mind

i'm wary of what people say, especially those who teach or proclaim to be enlightened, whether they may hail from this forum or others

Be wary but also be open minded.

Here's what happened when Buddha met the First person after his awakening and proclaimed his enlightenment (but the person didn't believe it and left) - an opportunity for dharma to be learnt and possibly his first awakened student, becomes lost:

http://www.thinkbuddha.org/article/244/miscommunication

Then, having stayed at Uruvela as long as I liked, I set out to wander by stages to Varanasi. Upaka the Ajivaka saw me on the road between Gaya and the (place of) Awakening, and on seeing me said to me, “Clear, my friend, are your faculties. Pure your complexion, and bright. On whose account have you gone forth? Who is your teacher? In whose Dhamma do you delight?”
When this was said, I replied to Upaka the Ajivaka in verses:

All-vanquishing,
all-knowing am I,
with regard to all things unadhering.
All-abandoning,
released in the ending of craving:
having fully known on my own,
to whom should I point as my teacher?
I have no teacher,
and one like me can’t be found.
In the world with its devas,
I have no counterpart.
For I am an arahant in the world;
I, the unexcelled teacher.
I, alone, am rightly self-awakened.
Cooled am I,unbound.
To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma
I go to the city of Kasi.
In a world become blind,
I beat the drum of the Deathless.
[…]
When this was said, Upaka said, “May it be so, my friend,” and — shaking his head, taking a side-road — he left.

An Eternal Now SG

e all know for the next buddha to be born, shakyamuni's dhamma need to be ended and wait for million of years to pass and for humans to grow up to eighty feet tall.

does the present era fulfil these conditions yet? now only 2,500 years has passed since the passing away of the Buddha, still a long way yet for the next buddha to arrive.

Dharma ending age and how long it last is not taught in sutras as far as I know. It's in commentaries. The number of years therefore varies according to who you ask. I doubt the Buddha said anything about that.

According to some Theravadin teachers from the Pa Auk Sayadaw tradition, we are actually still in the true dharma age where arhants still exist.

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