THE ONLY TRUE RELIGION DEBATE

last SG · 2011-07-11T23:56:39+00:00

"Amitayus48", you have only quoted those who said there is only one God. There are many who said otherwise."I no stupid", well said .. Buddhism does begin as...

sinweiy SG

Since you assert that Buddhism is not a philosophy, do you say it is a religion?

Let me ask you: medicine and biology is not a philosophy, do you say it is a religion? If you say medicine is philosophy, you're missing the point of medicine. If you say medicine is religion, you're missing the point of medicine. That is not the purpose.

Of course medicine and biology is neither a philosophy or a religion. They have very specific purposes, they treat specific conditions and help humanity in their ways.

Buddhism is such a thing... it is neither philosophy nor religion, it has a specific purpose which is to teach us the human condition and the way to end the human condition of suffering.

indeed.

An Eternal Now SG

a doctor discovers a disease, not philosophize it

a doctor discovers the cause of the disease, not philosophize it

a doctor discovers that there can be an end to the disease, not philosophize it

a doctor discovers the remedy to the disease, not philosophize it

philosophizing isnt going to help solve a problem

you need to discover the condition, the cause, the remedy - you really have to see and discover and experience for yourself.

otherwise it is simply useless unproven postulations

just like a doctor doesnt sit in his armchair trying to philosophize a medicine or treatment for the disease

he needs to examine, investigate, observe, experiment and discover it for himself, otherwise it is pointless

buddhism is all about discovery and liberation through one's awareness

Urdhaytb SG

Unless one has actually spoken directly to Buddha himself, to say Buddha had said this or that, is just putting words into Buddha's mouth. Have anyone of you ever personally spoken to Buddha? No. You only read books and they are all books by different authors. Have anyone of them spoken to Buddha himself? No, not a single one of them. No one can prove that they have spoken to Buddha, am I right? Has anyone here attained full enligjhtenment? No. All you could do is to write what you think is the Truth, but none of you have realized the Truth yet, correct? So that means you are not enlightened yet, right? You have not reach Nirvana yet, correct? How can anyone represent the Truth if all they did was read books and analyse from their unillumined minds and say this is this and that is that? The basic fundimental truth here is none of you is enlighthened, so please...you are not ready to preach anything yet. You only borrow words from books. You have to first be fully enlightened like what the Buddha did, before you can represent anyone's teaching and not before that.

I No Stupid SG

a doctor discovers a disease, not philosophize it

a doctor discovers the cause of the disease, not philosophize it

a doctor discovers that there can be an end to the disease, not philosophize it

a doctor discovers the remedy to the disease, not philosophize it

philosophizing isnt going to help solve a problem

you need to discover the condition, the cause, the remedy - you really have to see and discover and experience for yourself.

otherwise it is simply useless unproven postulations

just like a doctor doesnt sit in his armchair trying to philosophize a medicine or treatment for the disease

he needs to examine, investigate, observe, experiment and discover it for himself, otherwise it is pointless

buddhism is all about discovery and liberation through one's awareness

'Dukkha' is not exactly a disease, so I won't equate it with medicine. It will be idiotic to think that everyone (with exception) would consider cancer to be an issue to philosophize about! To philosophize about an issue is to think, to contemplate, to gain insight. Also, to philosophize does not mean just 'philosophizing' and nothing else. That is a very narrow take. A serious thinker will go beyond just postulating, and in his search for answer will learn, discover, experiment, examine other's views and conduct researches! Finding or proposing a solution usually follows.

Siddhartha was confronted with a burning issue and he left home to be with all sorts of gurus, Brahmin & Jain priests and ascetics learning from them, debating with them, examing what they taught, trying all sorts of 'tricks' like starving himself or sleeping on stones to experience pain. For me, I know it is painful to be hungry and to lie on stones, no need to experience!

I have to take my hat off for you - twisting the 4NTs to support of your contention that Buddhism didn't begin as a philosophy. You choose to ignore the very rationale why Siddhartha gave up everything and for 6 bumbling years tried to find an answer to why life sucks, and a way out of life sucks. If he had the ‘experience’ he could just as well come up with the Noble Truth in his palace!

I No Stupid SG

You have made an observation I wouldn't disagree. Perhaps, you would like to find out exactly what is (1) awakening, (2) enlightenment and (3) liberation.

The three terms have been used by all and sundry Buddhists, at times synonymously or inter-changeably.

I am of the opinion that they meant quite differently from each other.

realization SG

I No Stupid... if we followed your point of view that Buddhism did indeed start of as a 'philosophy' and nothing more, then may I ask if you think it was a 'philosophy' that worked? In other words, was it a 'philosophy' that was actually effective and yielded results in what it purported to do; namely, offer a way out of dukkha?

Aneslayer SG

Appeal to ignorance... By your arguments, no one is fit to teach religion unless they claim they have direct connections... like Scientology, Mormons...

I No Stupid SG

I No Stupid said: I like visitors here to give just one word to substitute this phrase “contemplating on what life is and what irks this existence and a way out of this cyclic existence”.

Buddhism = a contemplation of what life is and what irks this existence, and a way out of such cyclic existence.

Pardon the rudimentary nature of my substitution. I can be quite the primary school kid most days. I think simply, I guess

I take it that your answer to my question was 'Buddhism'. Very clever and diplomatic but would that be also the answer a non-Buddhist gives?

realization SG

I take it that your answer to my question was 'Buddhism'. Very clever and diplomatic but would that be also the answer a non-Buddhist gives?

Not sure what a non-Buddhist's answer to that question would be really. Perhaps we should wait for more interested visitors to drop by and give their two cents as well.

I No Stupid SG

Buddhism began as a philosophy but it didn't stop there. When Siddhartha stood up elated (just like Archimedes who ran out of his bath naked shouting 'eureka') after he ‘discovered’ the Truth, wanted very much to let the ‘world’ knows his discovery and he went eagerly to search for the 5 companions he abandoned. For the next 45 years he went about to teach the Noble Truths, developed doctrines, precepts, virtues; teaching both sangha and lay the way to end suffering – to abide by the precepts, to cultivate values and virtues, to live the wholesome life, to purify the mind – all that you will find in the 4^th NT or the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP).

Like any teaching, what the Buddha taught must be put into practice. By practice, I mean literally the eight steps of the NEP and not some rites or devotional rituals. If you look at the NEP, it is quite a tall order. For one to achieved all these is a feat beyond words and I am sure he will be a happy person, free from dukkha.

realization SG

Like any teaching, what the Buddha taught must be put into practice. By practice, I mean literally the eight steps of the NEP and not some rites or devotional rituals. If you look at the NEP, it is quite a tall order. For one to achieved all these is a feat beyond words and I am sure he will be a happy person, free from dukkha.

Do you think there are particular aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) that are especially important in the goal to be free from suffering?

I No Stupid SG

Do you think there are particular aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) that are especially important in the goal to be free from suffering?

I will not add or take away any aspect of the NEP. However, to rank them in importance is quite tricky. A practitioner would have to find his own way the order (sequence) of the 8 steps which he/she could achieved. For instance, he/she might find it easiest to choose the right livelihood. To perfect one's speech will take some training or mindfulness. By choosing the right livelihood, it may help to perfect one's speech because the job doesn't involve having to tell lies!

sinweiy SG

Truth is truth. People can regard Buddhism as philosophy or religion, it does not affect the truth.

Philosophy is just one small component of Buddhism...

[ Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.

Buddhism began as a philosophy but it didn't stop there.

i already see a middle way here liao.

Amitayus48 SG

Pratyekabuddha (緣覺佛). One who is enlightened through contemplating. He is also called a solitary Buddha (獨覺佛) because, living in solitude, he has realized the truth without receiving teachings from a Buddha.

According to the above, the mentioned enlightened being does not know what is true religion and also don't know Buddhism, but is very true

An Eternal Now SG

According to the above, the mentioned enlightened being does not know what is true religion and also don't know Buddhism, but is very true

a pratyekabuddha can only exist at a time where no other buddha's teachings exist, furthermore a pratyekabuddha does not have the ability to turn the dharma wheel or teach many others

realization SG

Yeah, certainly every step on the 8fold Path is important, but if I may add, I reckon that staying close to the teachings of the Buddha while traversing the 8fold Path is of especial importance.

In the past, I'd met a teacher who told us that while meditation is important, knowing why you are meditating is just as important. Otherwise, one could spend ten years being very disciplined in cross-legged contemplation and still get no where (unfortunately for me, this teacher didn't have much substantial to offer us by way of doctrine). More recently, fellow Buddhists on the forum have also been emphasizing the importance of Right View. It's really the first and foremost step on the Path and one that should continue to sustain us throughout our entire spiritual journey to awakening and freedom from suffering.

Just my 2 yuan. Lol.

An Eternal Now SG

actually im saying suffering is even more obvious than cancer, so what is there to postulate. some may be unaware they had cancer, but nobody can deny suffering.

the cause, end and remedy of suffering for a liberated person is also as obvious as daylight since he is enlightened and liberated, so what is there to postulate about

when you have true realization, experience and liberation, you are a thousand miles beyond postulations. you have seen it for yourself and you speak with authority.

An Eternal Now SG

actually the pali suttas are almost completely accurate depictions of the original words of the historical appearance of buddha (cant say for other canons but the pali canon are maintained by a tradition emphasizing on the authenticity of the original words of buddha), having an unbroken oral and textual tradition backdating to the buddha's times. comparing the various versions of the pali suttas we find almost no discrepencies and changes.

that said, i have also verified what the buddha said through personal experience (im sure many can say the same) so it is not just faith and belief for me.

Amitayus48 SG

actually im saying suffering is even more obvious than cancer, so what is there to postulate. some may be unaware they had cancer, but nobody can deny suffering.

the cause, end and remedy of suffering for a liberated person is also as obvious as daylight since he is enlightened and liberated, so what is there to postulate about

when you have true realization, experience and liberation, you are a thousand miles beyond postulations. you have seen it for yourself and you speak with authority.

Speak with authority but one's eyes can't see their own face is a matter of concern

一九八八年在美國首都華府，有位周廣大先生，也是在臨終前三天念佛往生的。他得的病是血癌，醫生放棄治療，這時他的家人慌了，他家裡沒有一個是信仰宗教的，一家人在華府開一間麵包店，此時家人才到處求神求佛，希望有奇蹟出現。也算他運氣好，因緣殊勝，遇到華府佛教會的一位龔振華居士。龔居士是念佛最虔誠的人，專修淨土，講話心直口快，容易得罪人。周先生碰到這麼一個人。龔居士一看，他的病不可能好，所以直截了當勸他不要求病好。他說：「人在世間太苦，你好了之後還不是一樣更苦，有甚麼意義？不如往生到西方極樂世界，到那裡去作佛、作菩薩，回來再度你的家親眷屬，這多好！」周廣大一聽很有道理，立刻就相信，就接受，要求他的太太兒女都幫助他念佛，求往生淨土不求病好。這一個決定下得正確！

佛教會的同修也有幾位前去幫他助念，三天三夜佛號沒有停止。念到第二天，見到地藏菩薩來了，他說出菩薩的樣子，大家聽他講的樣子，是地藏菩薩。龔居士很難得，立刻提醒他，不管甚麼樣佛菩薩、甚麼人，你見到都不能跟他去，一句阿彌陀佛念到底，不見到阿彌陀佛絕對不可以去。這一句非常非常重要。他回過頭來專心念「阿彌陀佛」，念了沒多久，地藏菩薩不見了。念到第三天，他說西方三聖：阿彌陀佛、觀音、勢至，從雲端下來接引他住生。這是現代人，還是在美國，真是稀有的因緣。周先生一生從來沒有接觸過佛教，臨終才遇到龔居士，走得清清楚楚、明明白白，他真的往生，絕對不是假的。

I No Stupid SG

actually im saying suffering is even more obvious than cancer, so what is there to postulate. some may be unaware they had cancer, but nobody can deny suffering.

the cause, end and remedy of suffering for a liberated person is also as obvious as daylight since he is enlightened and liberated, so what is there to postulate about

when you have true realization, experience and liberation, you are a thousand miles beyond postulations. you have seen it for yourself and you speak with authority.

'Suffering' as a verb means something we have undergone, hence, experience.

'Dukkha' as a noun means the issue (birth, ageing, sickness, death), something which can be postulated.

When Siddhartha sat under the bodhi tree in deep meditation, he was contemplating an ISSUE (dukkha). He was not experiencing anything while seated motionless and in deep thoughts. He got up (awaken) only after he had completely formulated the Four Noble Truths. And it was said that his hesitation to spread the good news was something like this: “I have discovered the profound truth of existence; they will never be able to understand.”

The Noble Truth taken in total was the culmination of a postulation and its search for answer which took 6 years in the making. Granted that experience may be input to the process of formulating the Truth, it is not entirely derived based on experiential realization. I would consider Siddhartha hardly experienced in life given that he lived a sheltered life for almost 30 yrs!

However, I give him credit for his determination and doggedness in wanting to find the meaning of existence. The way he formulated the Four Noble Truths is classic problem solving methodology – (1) state the problem, (2) determine the cause, (3) set the goal, (4) generate solutions. I do not consider this methodology anything to do with experiential realization.

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