i wonder why i heard some christians /catholics got advocate to
be vegetarian.
to clarify, Buddha kept quiet regarding whether
there's soul or not.
Vacchagotta comes to the Buddha and asks:
'Venerable Gotama, is there an Atman ?
The Buddha is silent.
'Then Venerable Gotama, is there no Atman?
Again the Buddha is silent.
Vacchagotta gets up and goes away.
more info: - http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/dhammananda/115.htm
i think understanding the concept is more
important than simply to say there's No-self. many
zen ppl like to say this. but if there's no
understanding, then ppl thinking of no-self, will go around
committing evil karma/action. so have to be careful.
i always advocate to use NOT-self, instead of NO self,
byThanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html
/\
Actually the Buddha did not keep quiet on whether there was an
Atman. He clearly demonstrated how there is no Atman or a
Tathagata-self (see the highlighted in red passage below) - no such
Self or Tathagata can be pinned down anywhere. However he does not
deny an individual mindstream of the five aggregates conventionally
labelled as self.
What he kept quiet was the notion of a self that can be existent
and non-existent. If there is no such self that can be located, or
found, to begin with, all the four extreme categories (existence,
non-existence, both and neither) are effectively denied.
By saying, soul does not exist, a person may be prone to an
nihilistic, materialistic understand that 'upon death, the self
ceases, as there is no self that can persist'. By saying soul
exists, a person will cling to an eternalistic understanding that
'upon death, the soul goes on'.
Both these are false views that Buddha did not want Vacchagota
to fall into. The understanding of Anatta is that there is no
'self' that can be pinned down inside or beyond the five skandhas,
so there can be no eternal self, or a self that annihilates, for
there is only ever a continuity of process and dependent
origination.
Then Vacchagotta the wanderer went to the Blessed One and, on
arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange
of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he
was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Now then, Master
Gotama, is the cosmos eternal?"
"That has not been declared by me, Vaccha: 'The cosmos is
eternal.'"
"Well then, Master Gotama, is the cosmos not eternal?"
"Vaccha, that too has not been declared by me: 'The cosmos is
not eternal.'"
"Then is the cosmos finite?"... "Is the cosmos infinite?"... "Is
the body the same as the soul?"... "Is the body one thing, and the
soul another?"... "Does the Tathagata exist after death?"... "Does
the Tathagata not exist after death?"... "Does the Tathagata both
exist and not exist after death?"... "Does the Tathagata neither
exist nor not exist after death?"
"Vaccha, that too has not been declared by me: 'The Tathagata
neither exists nor does not exist after death."
"Now, Master Gotama, what is the cause, what is the reason why —
when wanderers of other sects are asked in this way, they answer
that 'The cosmos is eternal' or 'The cosmos is not eternal' or 'The
cosmos is finite' or 'The cosmos is infinite' or 'The body is the
same as the soul' or 'The body is one thing and the soul another'
or 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not
exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist
after death" or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist
after death,' yet when Master Gotama is asked in this way, he does
not answer that 'The cosmos is eternal' or 'The cosmos is not
eternal' or 'The cosmos is finite' or 'The cosmos is infinite' or
'The body is the same as the soul' or 'The body is one thing and
the soul another' or 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The
Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists
and does not exist after death" or 'The Tathagata neither exists
nor does not exist after death'?"
"Vaccha, the members of other sects assume form to be the self,
or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self
as in form.
"They assume feeling to be the self...
"They assume perception to be the self...
"They assume fabrications to be the self...
"They assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as
possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the
self as in consciousness. That is why, when asked in this way, they
answer that 'The cosmos is eternal'... or that 'The Tathagata
neither exists nor does not exist after death.'
"But the Tathagata, worthy and rightly self-awakened, does not
assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form
as in the self, or the self as in form.
"He does not assume feeling to be the self...
"He does not assume perception to be the self...
"He does not assume fabrications to be the self...
"He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as
possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the
self as in consciousness. That is why, when asked in this way, he
does not answer that 'The cosmos is eternal'... or that 'The
Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"
Then Vacchagotta the wanderer, getting up from his seat, went to
Ven. Maha Moggallana and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings
with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies,
he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he [addressed the same
questions to Ven. Maha Moggallana and received exactly the same
explanation].
"Amazing, Master Moggallana! Astounding! How the meaning and
phrasing of the teacher and disciple agree, coincide, and do not
diverge from one another with regard to the supreme teaching! Just
now, Master Moggallana, I went to Gotama the contemplative and, on
arrival, asked him about this matter, and he answered me with the
same words, the same phrasing, as Master Moggallana. Amazing,
Master Moggallana! Astounding! How the meaning and phrasing of the
teacher and disciple agree, coincide, and do not diverge from one
another with regard to the supreme teaching!"
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying
near Vesali, in the
Great Wood,
at the Hall of the Gabled Pavilion. At that time Ven. Anuradha was staying not far
from the Blessed One in a wilderness hut.
Then a large number of wandering sectarians went to Ven.
Anuradha and on arrival exchanged courteous greetings with him.
After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, they sat
to one side. As they were sitting there, they said to Ven.
Anuradha, "Friend Anuradha, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the
superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being
described, is described with [one of] these four positions: The
Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does
& does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist
after death."
When this was said, Ven. Anuradha said to the wandering
sectarians, "Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the
superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being
described, is described otherwise than with these four positions:
The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both
does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not
exist after death."
When this was said, the wandering sectarians said to Ven.
Anuradha, "This monk is either a newcomer, not long gone forth, or
else an elder who is foolish & inexperienced." So the wandering
sectarians, addressing Ven. Anuradha as they would a newcomer or a
fool, got up from their seats and left.
Then not long after the wandering sectarians had left, this
thought occurred to Ven. Anuradha: "If I am questioned again by
those wandering sectarians, how will I answer in such a way that
will I speak in line with what the Blessed One has said, will not
misrepresent the Blessed One with what is unfactual, will answer in
line with the Dhamma, so that no one whose thinking is in line with
the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing me?"
Then Ven. Anuradha went to the Blessed One and on arrival,
having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was
sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Just now I was staying
not far from the Blessed One in a wilderness hut. Then a large
number of wandering sectarians came and... said to me, 'Friend
Anuradha, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man,
attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is
described with [one of] these four positions: The Tathagata exists
after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not
exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after
death.'
"When this was said, I said to them, 'Friends, the Tathagata —
the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative
attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with
these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not
exist after death, both does & does not exist after death,
neither exists nor does not exist after death.'
"When this was said, the wandering sectarians said to me, 'This
monk is either a newcomer, not long gone forth, or else an elder
who is foolish & inexperienced.' So, addressing me as they
would a newcomer or a fool, they got up from their seats and
left.
"Then not long after the wandering sectarians had left, this
thought occurred to me: 'If I am questioned again by those
wandering sectarians, how will I answer in such a way that will I
speak in line with what the Blessed One has said, will not
misrepresent the Blessed One with what is unfactual, will answer in
line with the Dhamma, and no one whose thinking is in line with the
Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing me?'"
"What do you think, Anuradha: Is form constant or
inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful,
subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what
I am'?"
"No, lord."
"Is feeling constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."...
"Is perception constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."...
"Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."...
"Is consciousness constant or inconstant?
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful,
subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what
I am'?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the
Tathagata?"
"No, lord."
"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"
"No, lord."
"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"
"No, lord."
"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"
"No, lord."
"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as
being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere
than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In
fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In
consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as
form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"
"No, lord."
"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form,
without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without
consciousness?"
"No, lord."
"And so, Anuradha — when you
can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the
present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the
Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the
superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise
than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death,
does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after
death, neither exists nor does not exist after
death'?"
"No, lord."
"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I
describe, and the cessation of stress."
