Does Buddha exists after Final Nirvana?

Jacky Woo SG

someone once asked if the Buddha exists or dun exists, he remained silent so as not to confuse the questioner.

in that case, how come there is Amitabha Buddha or Medicine Buddha after their final Nirvana?

A Buddha, even with his omniscient knowledge, could not change a person's karma, but how come Amitabha Buddha is able to create his pureland and bring people there? sounded akin to a heaven concept.

An Eternal Now SG

It's not only that 'existence' cannot apply after Buddha's death - as Buddha so clearly said in the sutta, you cannot even say Buddha exists even while he is alive, i.e. it cannot be said that he existed 2500 years ago. 'Existence' does not apply because the nature of reality is Anatta - empty of self. So that sutta is not just a sutta to say 'Buddha doesn't reply such ridiculous questions', it is actually a profound sutta that explains on how the nature of reality is Anatta - empty of self, and therefore 'existence', 'non-existence' of the Buddha cannot apply. Likewise, I cannot say that I exist, and neither can I say that you exist. It does not apply to reality as reality is actually a conglomerate of experiences arising without experiencer - sounds heard without hearer, thoughts arising without thinker, scene/seeing without seer.

And it's not only that Shakyamuni Buddha did not claim to exist. Amitabha Buddha and Medicine Buddha never claimed to exist either.

Ajahn Amaro:

There is a story I am reminded of that happened at a Buddhist
conference in Europe. A Tibetan lama was there, and a member
of the audience was an extremely serious German student. The
rinpoche had been teaching visualizations of Taμra and the puμjaμ
to the 21 Taμraμs. During the course of this teaching, this student,
with great sincerity, put his hands together and asked the question:
“Rinpoche, Rinpoche, I have zis big doubt. You see, all day
we do the puμjaμ to the 21 Taμra and, you know, I am very committed
to zis practice. I vant to do everything right. But I have zis
doubt: Taμraμ, does she exist or does she not? Really Rinpoche, is

she zhere or not? If she is zhere, I can have a full heart. But if
she’s not zhere, zen I don’t vant to do zhe puμjaμ. So please,
Rinpoche, once and for all, tell us, does she exist or does she
not?” The lama closed his eyes for a while, then smiled and
replied, “She knows she is not real.” It is not recorded how the
student responded.

.........................

As I wrote previously:

when a Buddha attained final nirvana, is he able to have his own pureland paradise after his final nirvana?

this is one of the speculation question, that the Buddha did not answer specifically, as it will confuse his questioner even more.

Buddha said that even right now, there is no self of a tathagata, so how can there be a tathagata that exists, not exists, both exists and not exist, or neither exist nor not exist after death. Since existence/non-existence implies a 'self' that can be existence or non existent.

This is simply talking about the no-self doctrine. In no way does it imply that there is no conventional self - as Buddha said, he uses conventions like anyone else, understanding it to be only for convenience - words like I, you, me, Buddha, are all conventions.

Therefore it does not contradict Buddhas making pure lands. None of the suttas mentioned anything like Buddhas cannot make pure land.

And here is the whole sutra, please read carefully and understand what Buddha is trying to teach:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali, in the Great Wood, at the Hall of the Gabled Pavilion. At that time Ven. Anuradha was staying not far from the Blessed One in a wilderness hut.

Then a large number of wandering sectarians went to Ven. Anuradha and on arrival exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, they sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they said to Ven. Anuradha, "Friend Anuradha, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described with [one of] these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death."

When this was said, Ven. Anuradha said to the wandering sectarians, "Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death."

When this was said, the wandering sectarians said to Ven. Anuradha, "This monk is either a newcomer, not long gone forth, or else an elder who is foolish & inexperienced." So the wandering sectarians, addressing Ven. Anuradha as they would a newcomer or a fool, got up from their seats and left.

Then not long after the wandering sectarians had left, this thought occurred to Ven. Anuradha: "If I am questioned again by those wandering sectarians, how will I answer in such a way that will I speak in line with what the Blessed One has said, will not misrepresent the Blessed One with what is unfactual, will answer in line with the Dhamma, so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing me?"

Then Ven. Anuradha went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Just now I was staying not far from the Blessed One in a wilderness hut. Then a large number of wandering sectarians came and... said to me, 'Friend Anuradha, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described with [one of] these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"When this was said, I said to them, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"When this was said, the wandering sectarians said to me, 'This monk is either a newcomer, not long gone forth, or else an elder who is foolish & inexperienced.' So, addressing me as they would a newcomer or a fool, they got up from their seats and left.

"Then not long after the wandering sectarians had left, this thought occurred to me: 'If I am questioned again by those wandering sectarians, how will I answer in such a way that will I speak in line with what the Blessed One has said, will not misrepresent the Blessed One with what is unfactual, will answer in line with the Dhamma, and no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing me?'"

"What do you think, Anuradha: Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Is feeling constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is perception constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is consciousness constant or inconstant?

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."

An Eternal Now SG

By the way from the Mahayana perspective (Lotus Sutra), Shakyamuni Buddha only manifested parinirvana to inspire sentient beings, but actually continue to work in other realms for the liberation of sentient beings.

From the Mahayana perspective, Buddhas and Bodhisattvas do not enter the personal cessation of an Arhat.

Jacky Woo SG

by the same token, it also applied to Arhat isnt it.

Lotus sutra is Mahayana sutra and is not recognised in the Theravada canon. But Mahayana only came a few hundred years after the Buddha passing away. if Lotus sutra is not in Theravada canon, which is much earlier than Mahayana, why is it so? surely the arhats, having rid of their ego and pride and even towards attachment to dhamma, does not propagate what the Buddha has taught.

bohiruci SG

by the same token, it also applied to Arhat isnt it.

You are using the Hinayana idea of totally refusing the existence of Mahayana by your understanding .If Mahayana sutra do not appear after the first Council ,is it true that the whole Mahayana idea is a farce ? you based so much academics and to the point of not believing even Buddha exist .I am sorry ,this is not a forum to question the Buddhist faith .The way you say it , let me understand you only based on books not realisation .Realisation must be through practice like chanting ,meditation and mantra chanting .

Your idea is totally using some people idea to totally refute the Buddha's teaching in a human way.Have you think the Perfected Human Being ,Buddha is a mere person who is Perfected of Goodness and only teach to Devas ? a Buddha teach to all sentient beings and even including the Nagas(dragon)and the hell people .

If you like the arhatship of self-liberation follow it , and do not come here to create potential slander of the mahayana faith .The nagas and protector will watch every action we commit .

An Eternal Now SG

by the same token, it also applied to Arhat isnt it.

I believe we have discussed umpteen times the origin of Mahayana sutras, so I shall not go into it again unless you have new questions.

As for your question which I missed: "A Buddha, even with his omniscient knowledge, could not change a person's karma, but how come Amitabha Buddha is able to create his pureland and bring people there? sounded akin to a heaven concept."

One thing: Amitabha cannot send people there, unless they practice. That's right. If Amitabha could change people's karma, he would have saved the entire lot of sentient beings in the world. He also would not have needed people to practice pure land, chanting, aspiring to be reborn in pure land, and so on.

Rather than changing people's karma, he simply provided a skillful means to purify sentient being's karma so that they can be reborn in pure land - only if you practice it.

It is said that -

8. When we refer to the Pure Land, what does it mean?

The land of all the Buddhas of the ten directions (The ten directions of space, i.e. the eight points of the compass and the nadir and zenith) is called Pure Land. Where does a Pure Land come from? It comes from a pure mind; first and foremost, the mind must be purified, only then will there be Pure Land. Our mind is like the great earth because like the great earth, many things can grow from the mind. The mind is often likened to a planting field or land. Therefore, when a person is kind-hearted, he is said to have a "virtuous mind-land", "virtuous mind-field" or "bright mind-land". Our every decision and idea are all born of the mind. Therefore, whether it is heaven or hell, they are solely created by the mind. When the thoughts of the mind are virtuous, then they lead to virtuous actions. In this way, people ascend to heaven. If on the other hand, the mind thinks of evil, makes evil decisions and evil deeds are committed, then one descends to hell. Thus, heaven and hell are created by the mind.

If the mind does not attach to the thoughts of good or evil and in this way is purified, then "a pure mind begets a pure land". If each and every person's mind is pure, then the land of our country will also be pure.

Thus, it does not mean that people who seek to be reborn in the Western Pure Land in their next life can do so by virtue of their karma. It depends on the kind of karma. If it is virtuous, then rebirth takes place in a good realm, a higher realm. If it is evil, then it takes place in an evil realm, a lower realm. It is only when the karma is pure that rebirth can take place in the Western Pure Land.

Karma refers to whatever that we do - the actions of our body, what we say and what goes on in our mind. It is only when the actions, speech and thoughts are pure, that people can be reborn in the Western Pure Land. It is possible for us to be pure in the three karma's (actions, speech and thoughts) by reciting "Amitabha Buddha". It only takes one person's mind to be pure for it to bring about a positive effect on one's surroundings. When all the members of the family have purified their minds, all members of the society have purified their minds, the entire human race across the world has purified its mind, then a Pure Land on earth is achieved.

9. Besides chanting Amitabha Buddha, what else should one practise?

Practitioners of the method of chanting the Buddha's name not only recite "Amitabha Buddha", but in addition should also cultivate merits. It is stated in the Amitabha Sutra that rebirth in the Western Pure Land is not possible via conditions that are lacking in virtuous roots, blessings and merits. For instance, when we have practised and perfected the Six Parameters (1. Observing the Precepts, 2. Endurance, 3. Giving, 4. Zeal and Progress, 5. Meditation, and 6. Wisdom), then to be reborn in the Western Pure Land is a simple matter. If you have accomplished a mind that is as pure as the Amitabha Buddha's, then there is no necessity for Amitabha Buddha to come and guide you to the Western Pure Land. At that time you are already a great Bodhisattva. Not only can a great Bodhisattva go the Western Pure Land; he can go to any pure land as he pleases.

2009novice SG

pardon my ....... rudeness

I think when someone who ask questions, there might be a possibility, or an opportunity that changes a person's perception and bring him/her closer to Buddhism.... don't get hot

Especially so when the questions seems weird, irrelevant or whatever

and cheers to those who have great knowledge and shares tirelessly... lol

Aik TC SG

Hi Jacky,

Suggest you try reading up on some of the history of the Buddhist faith, its spread, how it has evolved over the centuries from a Pluralistic approach to Absolutism and eventually Idealism, i.e. from the Doctrine of the Elders, to the Madhyamika doctrine of emptiness and finally to the Vijnanavada doctrine of Mind only. In fact, such development are inevitable in all religions and it is certainly good as it eventually will caters to a much wider section of people with different outlook and preferences.

By the way, I believe most of us accessing to this site are open to listen to other people views and at the same time learn from them as well.

mochi_cake SG

the question is the same as asking 'does the light exist after a candle flame has been ceased? where does the light go after the candle flame has been ceased?'

zero thought SG

This is because the causes and conditions for sentient beings to accept Mahayana teachings has not ripen. So the Mahayana has to be kept aside 1st, until the time when sentient beings can believe and accept the Mahayana are they then revealed.

bohiruci SG

Jacky , I will say the best is for you to follow the faith and using the mindfulness thought to chant Namo Sakyamuni Buddha more than 344 000 000 000 000 times without fail, He will appear infront of you .

The incompleteness of the pitakas (Mahjimma , Samyutta and vinaya) towards the concept of emptiness is insufficient to link up with the Great Compassion ,Great Vows of the Mahayana Bodhisattva teachings .

Its like the salt on your table versus the salt in the big ocean ,one is limited in practise aspect and while the other far so wide into the deep ocean .

In the Theravada teachings , if a person so wishes to seek liberation ,he will practices meditation and observe the precepts.However ,not everyone is successful and will like meditation ,It like one rice to feed different races , religious people-some like the rice to be sticky, some like the rice to be with milk , some like the rice to be curry gravy, some like the rice to be hard like pearl,some like the rice to soaked in coconut milk and so on and so forth .

i can bet u to the last dollar in the Theravada sutra u will never see how to tackle people who always say NO to practising Buddhism ,no matter how bad he /she suffer due to Karma .

the reason for this is different sentient beings have different conditions for seeking salvations and there is no "one size fits all" situations

to a theravada ,if he wishes to deliver a group of sentient beings who loves to cycle in the forest track , only tries one way,explain suffering to them .But when comes to skill, He will choose aversion , fearing learning cycling add attachment to his liberation.Mahayana is different .There is a comprehensive sets of teachings on skilled means in which Bodhisattva must accord with the conditions and learnt cycling and getting to know the forest cycling group.

This shows the encompassing and comprehensiveness of Buddha and in the Mahayana sutra Buddha have said He who practise Emptiness sees Him in person without deviant seeking in sounds , words and material form(Diamond Sutra)

I have been reading Mahayana sutra since 15 years old and now at 30s i have never seen an exhaustible ways of how Mahayana Buddhism have helped people and bring people to the Path of Bodhi

From the Others Power of Pureland Teaching , to understand the workings of the mind in Yogacara Buddhism ,to the Great Comtemplation and Meditatative Reflection in Tientai Buddhism ,to entering the Buddha-field of Capability ,to seeing one's nature in Chan Buddhism ,there is always one which suit any sentient beings

Bohiruci

bohiruci SG

pardon my ....... rudeness

I think when someone who ask questions, there might be a possibility, or an opportunity that changes a person's perception and bring him/her closer to Buddhism.... don't get hot

Especially so when the questions seems weird, irrelevant or whatever

and cheers to those who have great knowledge and shares tirelessly... lol

I beg to differ ,if i do that based on what you mentioned ,this 19 years of Buddhist practise i busy for nothing .

There are conditions that certain sentient beings seriously not interested in practising .try telling that life is suffering to someone who celebrate His/Her 21st birthday at his /her party.For that I think you know you will be chased out of the house .and unwelcomed anymore .

Its kind of idealistic to think of trying to change the mindset of people ,just like the zealous christian of mine trying to convert me .When they dun understand the polite No so many times.I will shoot them to quote the verses from Corinthian to Paul Gospel till they keep quiet .

There is a balance for everyone and to share tirelessly is wheelchair economist idea and never able to materialise .

To keep sharing and always incurring the wrath of others and thinking that sharing tirelessly is great merit have no difference with the idea of Christian conversion by hitting quota

There must be wisdom in sharing , if not ,whats the purpose of those ferocious looking protectors and the heaven king .Why cant they look more friendly instead of always so fierce ?

Just a children who misbehave at home due to plain selfishness, the parent have the right to cane till the kid understand the right before He/She grows up to be slashing people right in the public, causing death to many.

my 2 cents worth

Amitayus48 SG

Remain silent is in fact answering the question :)

When cow drink plain water, it produces milk, similarly to snake drinks plain water, it produces poison. Amitabha Pureland is unlike heaven, in which, it is develops by sentient beings' faith, vow and both merits & blessings instead of blessings alone. Only Buddha and Buddha are able to comprehend entirely the nature bliss of Pureland, according to Patriarches based on their attainment of Buddhahood. Arahat did not know what is Bodhi / Buddhahood, according to The Surangama Sutra.

reborn76 SG

1) Does Buddha exist anot? Yes, he does historical speaking from the remaining archaeology artefacts and historian record. We know that Buddha walk the surface of this earth, 2,500 years ago. That Buddha is known as Shayamuni, born as a prince known as Gautama Siddhartha.

2) Based on the archaeology and historian facts, sadly we cannot prove the existence of Amitabha and Medicine Buddha. We can only known about their existence in other parts of the universe through the Mahanyana scripture. Of course, most people will struggle with the logic of believing in an entity who we cannot prove scientifically. That's why, Buddha teach various methodology for various being. To a rational individual, he taught the path of Hinanaya way where one can easily follow such as keeping moral precept, practising meditation to calm the mind and finally to understand the mind. To a devotional individual, he taught Mahanya way because he want to take a step beyond the Hinayana path to serve others and to follow a role model Buddha or Bodhisattva way. Ultimately, both will eventually lead into Buddhahood. The universe is so vast with billion of star yet we are part of it. Does one unbelief make this universe less in existence?

3) If a Buddha cannot change a person karma, how can he create a pureland? Indeed Buddha cannot change a person karma, only we ourselves can. In fact, it does not matter whether one is a Buddhist or not. By the fact, one follow the moral precept we are creating a good karma for the future. A pureland is created through the merits of the Buddha. In order to go there, one need to possess good merits.

It is like Harvard university. It existence was due to John Harvard generousity contirbution. Whether a student can enroll in the uni, it will depend on one good academic credits. John Harvard create a right condition for the student to pursue the education but it is up to the student whether he can make it there.

4) Heaven? Heaven exists due to the collective karma of the beings there. In buddhism, there is as many as 33 heavens. However, once a being's karma is exhausted he will experience death and seek reborn in others relam of existence. Perhaps in human context, it is like a millionaire who went bankrupt due to unwise decision.

Hope it will help in clarifying your query.

Gassho

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo

Aik TC SG

bohiruci…. Just getting curious, is 344 trillion times, figuratively speaking or actual figures?

Fugazzi SG

Nirvana is cessation of desire/no-mind/ a ''herenow'' existential expereince where the experiencer has disappeared into the experience - If Buddha exists then it is no longer a state of nirvana but a mind-game!

Fcukpap SG

there are great little moments that lead us to eternity and eternity momentary to the next...

there is no end path in buddhism so whence the beginning?

2009novice SG

I beg to differ ,if i do that based on what you mentioned ,this 19 years of Buddhist practise i busy for nothing .

Chill dude... No one will say inauspicious things in birthday parties, wedding dinners etc...

OK....

There is a balance for everyone and to share tirelessly is wheelchair economist idea and never able to materialise .

To keep sharing and always incurring the wrath of others and thinking that sharing tirelessly is great merit have no difference with the idea of Christian conversion by hitting quota

I mentioned earlier in my previous post... Only share when people ask....

There must be wisdom in sharing , if not ,whats the purpose of those ferocious looking protectors and the heaven king .Why cant they look more friendly instead of always so fierce ?

my 2 cents worth

Oh yah go to this website

http://conversion.buddhists.sg/

I think it's provided by AEN ah... nice pdf go read... very useful for "self-defence"

Fugazzi SG

Existence is beginlessness and never ends. In other words, one is never born and one never dies! It is akin to the breeze passing thru one's window. It is buddhafield expereince, once the windows and doors are shut to capture that experience - it becomes buddhism.

diablotical SG

Dear dharma brothers, it is really nice see this thread and so much valuable sharing and inputs from each other. There are 84,000 dharma doors and as long we all find the one that is suited for us, we can progress more effectively. Let us cast aside our personal thoughts, whether which school of taught we came from for the time being. Let us understand that we are buddhist and it is a rare chance in a thousand of millions of aeons for us to be born in the human realm and still get a chanCe to learn the dharma.

When I see theravada buddhism, mahayana buddhism or tibetian buddhism, i only see one thing. The teachings of the buddha. Why look for the differences of the different schools when we can look at the similiarities of every school. I’m quite sure buddha already know this day will be like this due to our defilements.

Let us all learn from each other. Practice! Yes! Practice! Buddhist today lacks of practicing. When our insight increases, we will be able to see the more clearly into the dharma instead of just understanding the words intellectually. Buddha also meditated till he develop his insight and he say the dharma, the truth. He did not create the dharma. He just merely tell us what is happening and there is a way for us to be like him.

May we be well, happy and peaceful and be blessed by the triple gems. May we be free from physical and mental sufferings. Let there be less hatred in this world and let us (buddhist) fill the world with more loving kindness. Let us all make this world a better place for everyone.

Sadhu sadhu sadhu

Amitoufo