The 4 factors of a Sotappana

simpo_ SG

With reference to question asked by some forumer, I found this useful article:

http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/thtut03.htm

An Eternal Now SG

This is a good topic... thanks for sharing the link, it's informative.

When I think of Sotapanna, or stream enterer, I think of two things:

1) Entering the stream as in entering the irreversible conveyer belt towards Nirvana. And why? Once the insight into the nature of reality is seen, it can never be unseen again. Remaining obscuration still occur and one may even 'forget' the truth for a while in subsequent lifetimes (maximum 7 more rebirths for sotapanna before final Nirvana), yet the insight is already planted deep into his consciousness.

2) Entering the stream as seeing the nature of dharmas which are impermanent and non self. Seeing the absence of an agent, In seeing there is just scenery, in thinking there is just thoughts, there is no seer and thinker. If there is only dharmas, phenomena, then you have entered the stream, why? It is the realisation that only the flow of experience IS, the 'self' is not!

Next...

Sotapanna is known to have opened the Dhamma Eye. Arhant is known to have opened the Wisdom Eye.

What is the Dhamma Eye? It's not the third eye, or a physical eye, or heavenly eye, or the Eternal Witness, etc. I'd say it's the 'eye of perception'... the non-dual, non-conceptual, direct, immediate mode of perceiving Dharma... it's seeing that in that dharma, say, the experience of seeing, the experience of hearing, thinking, there is in fact no hearer, seer, thinker - there is Only Dharma. It is seeing the nature of experience... arising and subsiding momentarily is it's nature.

What is Wisdom Eye? This one is quite beyond my understanding, but I speculate it is insight that goes so deep into consciousness that the wisdom destroys all remaining traces of ignorance... along with all other traces of clinging and defilements. Ended is the cycle of rebirth.

geis SG

Thank you for the sharing

Thusness SG

With reference to question asked by some forumer, I found this useful article:

http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/thtut03.htm

Very useful article.

It is difficult to reborn as a human, but more difficult to come to a realisation of the right view.

How true! Thanks for sharing simpo.

SevenEleven SG

there's a description of the 4 stages in the Samanaphula sutta

An Eternal Now SG

there's a description of the 4 stages in the Samanaphula sutta

Can't find a description there.

Anyway just found a good one, quoted a small excerpt here but recommend reading the whole page:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html#arising

What does the Dhamma eye see when it arises?

Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the wanderer:

Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this exposition of Dhamma, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.

— Mv 1.23.5

This standard formula — it is repeated throughout the Canon — may not seem that remarkable an insight. However, the texts make clear that this insight is not a matter of belief or contemplation, but of direct seeing. As the following passages show, belief and contemplation may be conducive to the seeing — and an undefined level of belief and discernment may actually guarantee that someday in this lifetime the seeing will occur — but only with the actual seeing does there come a dramatic shift in the course of one's life and one's relationship to the Dhamma.

"Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Forms... Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"The earth property... The liquid property... The fire property... The wind property... The space property... The consciousness property is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"Form... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

— SN 25.1-10

To Upali the householder, as he was sitting right there, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. Then — having seen the Dhamma, having reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more questioning — Upali the householder gained fearlessness and was independent of others with regard to the Teacher's message.

— MN 56

Part of what makes the arising of the Dhamma eye such a powerful experience is that the realization that "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation" must follow on a glimpse of what stands in opposition to "all that is subject to origination," i.e., a glimpse of the Unconditioned — deathlessness.

[Immediately after attaining the stream] Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Your faculties are bright, my friend; your complexion pure & clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have..."

— Mv 1.23.5

The connection between Ven. Assaji's verse above, discussing causation, and the arising of the Dhamma eye in Sariputta suggests that realization conveyed by the Dhamma eye is not just an insight into the fleeting, impermanent nature of ordinary experience. Instead, it extends also to a realization of the conditioned, dependent nature of that experience. Other passages describing in more detail the knowledge of a stream-winner — one who has entered the stream — show that this is in fact the case. The Dhamma eye sees that things arise and pass away in line with a particular type of causality, in which the effects of causes are felt immediately or over the course of time.

"And which is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment?

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices:

"In other words:

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment."

— AN 10.92

"When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be."

— SN 12.20

The insight of a stream-winner into the truths of causality on the one hand, and of the Deathless on the other, is accurate as far as it goes, but it does not equal the intensity of the insight of the arahant — one who has reached the final level of awakening. The differences between the two are suggested in the following simile.

"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended. It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."

— SN 12.68

simpo_ SG

Very useful article.

It is difficult to reborn as a human, but more difficult to come to a realisation of the right view.

How true! Thanks for sharing simpo.

Yah... right view sure isn't easy.

Beautiful951 SG

Thanks for the link simpo.

From the link, the 4th requirement scares me the most because I have to see "no-self" by myself.

There is a word from the link "namarupa" what does it mean? I have searched on the internet but I don't understand what they mean.

simpo_ SG

This is a good topic... thanks for sharing the link, it's informative.

When I think of Sotapanna, or stream enterer, I think of two things:

Next...

Sotapanna is known to have opened the Dhamma Eye. Arhant is known to have opened the Wisdom Eye.

Hi AEN,

Thanks for sharing.

I will like to add some opinion here.

IMO, there is a difference between non-duality and no-self insight. Both experiences are quite similar, but the insight/understanding is different.

In non-duality, the realisation is that there is no subject-object division. In no-self, well... the realisation is that there is no medium agent of a self.

IMO, the arising and passing away experience stems from the insight of no-self. It do not result from the non-dual realisation.

This is just my understanding... certainly open to further discussion :)

Regards

An Eternal Now SG

Thanks for the link simpo.

From the link, the 4th requirement scares me the most because I have to see "no-self" by myself.

There is a word from the link "namarupa" what does it mean? I have searched on the internet but I don't understand what they mean.

No need to be scared... know that many have done it even today, even in this forum. You just need interest, sincere, right practice, and good guidance, right view.

Nama rupa means name and form. Nama is the mental constituents - all experiences are categorised under this, whereas rupa is the physical constituents like your physical body.

In short:

Mind consists of the combination of sensations, perceptions, volitional activities and consciousness. Matter consists of the combination of the four elements of solidity, fluidity, motion and heat.

http://www.viet.net/~anson/ebud/whatbudbeliev/73.htm

An Eternal Now SG

Hi AEN,

Thanks for sharing.

I will like to add some opinion here.

IMO, there is a difference between non-duality and no-self insight. Both experiences are quite similar, but the insight/understanding is different.

In non-duality, the realisation is that there is no subject-object division. In no-self, well... the realisation is that there is no medium agent of a self.

IMO, the arising and passing away experience stems from the insight of no-self. It do not result from the non-dual realisation.

This is just my understanding... certainly open to further discussion :)

Regards

Thanks for the sharing... I do agree with you on this and there is a crucial difference... do add on or correct me if necessary -

In non dual, there is no inner and outer, subject and object division. As such all manifestation are experienced vividly, and it is seen 'Awareness is everything'. Yet there can still be clinging to 'Awareness', to a Source/Agent which is nevertheless non-dual with all things. 'Awareness' still seems solid and inherent even though non-dual.

In Anatta, there is really no hearer, no seer, no agent, no 'Ultimate Non-dual Awareness'... there is just constituents of sensations, perceptions, thoughts, arising and subsiding momentarily... There is nothing solid and graspable there.

Beautiful951 SG

No need to be scared... know that many have done it even today, even in this forum. You just need interest, sincere, right practice, and good guidance, right view.

Thanks. I hav already started. There seems to be a lot of new articles coming out and this is the first time I read that there are two types of sotapanna. =)

Beautiful951 SG

simpo_ SG

Thanks for the sharing... I do agree with you on this and there is a crucial difference... do add on or correct me if necessary -

Yah...

Non-duality is more obvious when it is experienced.

No-self is a more subtle insight. There is a subtle 'switch'. It is this subtle switch that allows for the arising and passing away as the 'self' is not blocking the arising from passing away.

I hope i am getting it right... :) Hope for Thusness' input and advise.

simpo_ SG

Thanks for the link simpo.

From the link, the 4th requirement scares me the most because I have to see "no-self" by myself.

There is a word from the link "namarupa" what does it mean? I have searched on the internet but I don't understand what they mean.

To the 'sense of self', 'no-self' sounds scary. But it is really not :)

IMO, the greatest barrier for you (atm) is to overcome the fears. Along the path, there are a lot of situations to face fears.

An Eternal Now SG

Yah...

Non-duality is more obvious when it is experienced.

No-self is a more subtle insight. There is a subtle 'switch'. It is this subtle switch that allows for the arising and passing away as the 'self' is not blocking the arising from passing away.

I hope i am getting it right... :)

Very clearly said.. thanks! :)

An Eternal Now SG

To Beautiful:

I was just reading Simpo's post and I realised the 'Sula Sotapanna' they were referring to is anyone who experienced the A&P (Arising and Passing) insight, or the 4th nana.

This, to me, and Daniel Ingram (Mahasi teacher), is not the real Sotapanna.

It is also not the Sotapanna referred to by Buddha.

Daniel Ingram calls it 'pseudo Nirvana'... it may appear to mimic certain aspects of Nirvana, but it is not. There is some insights, but not yet the real Sotapanna stage.

A lot of people have A&P experiences... I had them since years ago.

Also see

More info in Daniel Ingram's book - http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml

simpo_ SG

To Beautiful:

I was just reading Simpo's post and I realised the 'Sula Sotapanna' they were referring to is anyone who experienced the A&P (Arising and Passing) insight, or the 4th nana.

This, to me, and Daniel Ingram (Mahasi teacher), is not the real Sotapanna.

It is also not the Sotapanna referred to by Buddha.

Daniel Ingram calls it 'pseudo Nirvana'... it may appear to mimic certain aspects of Nirvana, but it is not. There is some insights, but not yet the real Sotapanna stage.

A lot of people have A&P experiences... I had them since years ago.

Also see

More info in Daniel Ingram's book - http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml

Reference from the site:

“When the analytical insight-knowledge is complete, the yogi will, while watching the ceaseless arising and passing away of namarupa, see the cessation of namarupa formations, that is Nibbana at the Sotapatti stage of the path.”

IMO, this set the requirement for Real Sotapanna quite high. If I am reading it correctly, this means that a glimpse of the unborn, deathless is required.

Beautiful951 SG

Reference from the site:

IMO, this set the requirement for Real Sotapanna quite high. If I am reading it correctly, this means that a glimpse of the unborn, deathless (Presence) is required.

In that case, I would have to do meditation more often. Does that mean having to understand that there is no birth and death?

Thusness SG

Yah...

Non-duality is more obvious when it is experienced.

No-self is a more subtle insight. There is a subtle 'switch'. It is this subtle switch that allows for the arising and passing away as the 'self' is not blocking the arising from passing away.

I hope i am getting it right... :) Hope for Thusness' input and advise.

Yes Simpo,

That is what I understand too. There are subtle differences between Advaita non-duality and buddhist's anatta both in terms of realization and experience.

When contemplating on the subject of 'no-self', the mind of the practitioner is directed towards the transient phenomena and upon the ripening of conditions, the mind suddenly sees the illusionary division of subject-object duality; with the maturing of this realization, experience becomes seamlessly whole. There is no hearer in hearing or perceiver in perceiving, just simply a sense of perception. In terms of this experience, they are similar.

However although the blinding bond of 'duality' is dissolved, the tendency to see things 'inherently' isn't. The practitioners continue to resort back to a Self despite after the clear seeing of this truth and rest their understanding of 'no-self based on Self'. This is substantialist non-duality. There is an ultimate essence and abiding in Self is still the way towards liberation and there is also the temptation to treat this experience as a sort of pseudo finality.

Buddhism on the other hand sees this experience and realization as the first step in the 8 fold path -- right view. It means right view of anatta is fully authenticated with this non-dual experience but Buddhist’s non-dual is non-abiding, groundless and essence-less. There is no resorting back to an ultimate essence and the entire idea of liberation is based on seeing clearly the anatta, non-substantiality, essence-less empty nature of whatever arises, including Awareness or Self. Experience is luminously non-dual yet empty.

Therefore in Buddhism, besides the experience, right view is very important. Upon the clearing seeing of ‘no division’, it is advisable to penetrate further into the impermanent nature of phenomena both at the micro and macro level of experience. In terms of practice, there is no letting go to an ultimate ground or great void but the letting go is due to the thorough insight of the ‘empty nature’ of all arising -- Reality is perpetually ‘letting go’.

So in addition to the non-dual seamless experience, there must also be the clear experience of perpetual letting go of non-holding to whatever arises. Therefore when AEN told me non-dual presence, the NDNCDIMOP or being lock up permanently in PCEs of the AF as the key solution to eliminate emotion, pride and anger…the 10 fetters, I told him not yet, not because I am stubbornly attached to Buddha's teaching but because that is my realization and experience. :-)

The journey towards 'no-self' is analogous to peeling an onion. Practitioner goes through the process of peeling from dissolving of personality and identity to non-conceptuality to non-duality to realization of the lack of ownership to clear seeing of 'no agent behind transient phenomena to the empty nature of whatever arises. As we peel, the 'willingness' to let go certain aspects of 'self'/Self' grow and with more 'willingness' to let go, we come closer to seeing the true face of freedom.

Deeper clinging to a Self is not washed away with the non-dual insight. There must be further integration of the ‘non-dual’ experience into this arising and passing away, this impermanent nature, to dissolve the illusionary sense of self, anger, emotion, pride even the non-dual presence that we treasure so much; let whatever arises goes, be it during the waking, dreaming or deep sleep state. There will then come a time where a practitioner realizes the same ‘taste’ of the 3 states as there is no holding of the non-dual presence and all experiences turn natural, effortless and self-liberating.

Just my 2 cents. :)