(from http://www.rangjung.com/authors/tulku_urgyen_rinpoche-interview.htm)
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche
Interview for Vajradhatu Sun, 1985
The following interview with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche was
recorded on the 16th day of December, 1985, at Nagi Gompa, outside
of Kathmandu.
When Rinpoche was asked if he would grant an interview for the
Vajradhatu Sun, his reply was, "What is the use of the tiny light
of a firefly when the sun has already risen in the sky?" referring
to Trungpa Rinpoche's presence in the West.
Q: Can Rinpoche please tell us about his life,
his teachers, and the retreats he has done?
R: I was born in Eastern Tibet, in Kham, in the area
called Nangchen. The Dharma teaching of my family line is called
Barom Kagyu. My grandmother was the daughter of Chokgyur Lingpa,
the great terton, so my family line also practices the Nyingma
teachings. Since I hold the lineages of both Kagyu and Nyingma, my
monastery in Boudhanath is therefore called Ka-Nying Shedrub Ling,
The Kagyu and Nyingma Place for Teaching and Practice.
From the time I was quite small until the age of
twenty-one, I stayed with 
my father
who was a Vajrayana teacher and tantric layman. His name was
Tsangsar Chimey Dorje. My father was my first teacher and from him
I received the transmission for the Kangyur, the entire teachings
of the Buddha, and also for the Chokling Tersar, "The New
Treasures of Chokgyur Lingpa." Later, I studied
with my father's older brother, Tulku Samten Gyatso from whom I
received also, among other things, the entire transmission of the
Chokling Tersar.
Later on I studied with an incredible great master
named Kyungtrul Karjam and from him I received the entire Dam-ngak
Dzo as well as Chowang Gyatsa, the Hundred Empowerments of Cutting
Practice. He also passed on to me the reading transmission for the
Hundred
Thousand Nyingma Tantras and the Jangter
Gongpa Sangtal, the Northern Treasure of
Unimpeded Wisdom Mind. In particular, I received from him a
detailed commentary and clarification of the important treasure of
Chokgyur Lingpa renowned as Lamrim
Yeshe Nyingpo, the Gradual Path of The Wisdom
Essence.
From the time I was eight years old, I received
teachings on the nature of mind from my own father, and I was lucky
later on, to receive detailed instructions in the form of "guidance
through personal experience" from Samten Gyatso on the teachings of
Dzogchen, the Great Perfection. From my other uncle, Tersey
Rinpoche, who was a close disciple of the great siddha Shakya Shri,
I was also lucky to receive teachings on Dzogchen.
Moreover, I again received detailed teachings on
Lamrim
Yeshe Nyingpo from Jokyab Rinpoche, a disciple of
Dru Jamyang Drakpa. The body of teachings known as Rinchen
Terdzo, the Precious Treasury, I received from
Jamgon Kongtrul, the son of the 15th
Karmapa. As for the other of the Five Treasuries,
I received the Gyachen Kadzo from my third uncle, Sang-ngak
Rinpoche, the Kagyu Ngakdzo from H.H. the 16th Karmapa himself, and
the Sheja Kunkyab Treasury from Tana Pemba Rinpoche. I addition, I
have received the root empowerments of Jigmey Lingpa from H.H.
Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche several times.
In Eastern Tibet I spent three years in retreat just
reciting the Mani. [Laughs]. Later on at Tsurphu, the seat of the
Karmapas, I also spent three years in retreat and then again in
Sikkim I was able to spend almost three years in intensive
practice. Lately, I have been here at Nagi Gompa for a few years.
That's my life story.
Q: What lineages does Rinpoche hold?
R: My family line is the holder of the Barom Kagyu
teachings which originate from Gampopa's disciple Barom Dharma
Wangchuk. His disciple was Tishi Repa whose disciple was called
Repa Karpo. His disciple again was Tsangsar Lumey Dorje. His
disciple, Jangchub Shonnu of Tsangsar, is in my paternal ancestral
lineage. The line of his son and his son again, all the way down to
my father, is called Tsangsar Lhai Dung-gyu, the Divine Bloodline
of Tsangsar.
My incarnation line is called
Chowang Tulku. With that same name I am just the second. My past
life was said to be an incarnation of Guru
Chowang. 
He was also
said to be an emanation of one of the twenty-five disciples of
Padmasambhava called Nubchen Sangye Yeshe, but who knows that for
sure. [Laughs]. My former life, Chowang Tulku, was a "secret yogi."
No one knew how his practice was, but when he passed away his body
shrunk down to the size of one cubit without decomposing.
Q: What does Dzogchen mean?
R: Dzog, "perfection" or "completion," means as in this
quote from a tantra, "Complete in one - everything is complete
within mind. Complete in two - everything of samsara and nirvana is
complete within this."
"Dzog" means that all the teachings, all phenomena, is
completely contained in the vehicle of Dzogchen; all the lower
vehicles are included within Dzogchen. "Chen," "great," means that
there is no method or means higher than this vehicle.
Q: What is the basic outline of practice according to
the Dzogchen path?
R: All the Buddha's teachings are contained within nine
gradual vehicle of which Dzogchen, the Great Perfection, is like
the highest golden ornament on a rooftop spire, or the victory
banner on the summit of a great building. All the eight lower
vehicles are contained within the ninth which is called Dzogchen in
Tibetan, Mahasandhi in Sanskrit [and the Great Perfection in
English]. But Dzogchen is not contained in the lowest one, the
shravaka vehicle. So when we say "perfect" or "complete" it means
that all the lower yanas are perfected or completely contained
within the Great Perfection, within Dzogchen.
Usually we say that Dzogchen, sometimes called Ati
Yoga, is a Dharma tradition but actually it is just the state of
one's mind, basically.
When
it comes to combining these following two points into actual
experience, we can use the statement of the 3rd Karmapa, Rangjung
Dorje, "It is not existent as even the buddhas have not seen it."
This means that the basic state of mind is not something that
exists in a concrete way; even the buddhas of the three times have
never perceived it. "It is not non-existent as it is the basis for
both samsara and nirvana. This is not a contradiction, it is the
middle path of unity." Contradiction is like having fire and water
on the same plate. Its impossible. But that is not the case here.
The basic nature is neither existent nor non-existent - these two
are an indivisible unity. "May I perceive the mind nature free from
extremes." Usually when we say "is" it contradicts "is not." And
when we say "non-existent" it contradicts "existent." But this
middle path of unity is devoid of such contradiction. When it is
said "to attain the unified state of Vajradhara," that actually
refers to what I discussed here.
This unity of being empty and cognizant is the state of
mind of all sentient beings. There is nothing special about that. A
practitioner should encompass that with "a core of awareness." That
is the path of practice. Again, "the unity of being empty and
cognizant with a core of awareness."
The special feature of Dzogchen is as follows:
"Primordial pure essence is Trekcho, Cutting Through." This view is
actually present in all the nine vehicles, but the special quality
of Dzogchen is what is called "The spontaneously present nature is
Togal, Direct Crossing." The unity of these two, Cutting Through
and Direct Crossing, Trekcho and Togal, is the special or unique
teaching of Dzogchen. That is how Dzogchen basically is. That's
it.
Q: That is a very wonderful teaching. It seems like
Dzogchen is very direct and doesn't seem to have a linear quality
in terms of the way one would approach it. In the other yanas
sometimes one would first do the set of preliminaries, then a yidam
practice. tsa-lung practice etc., this and that. It seems like
Dzogchen is very immediate, like the essence is already present,
available. Is there any kind of linear path in the way one would
approach these teachings or is it always direct, like this?
R: We do in the Dzogchen tradition have the gradual
system of preliminaries, main part and so forth. But the special
characteristic of Dzogchen is to introduce or point out directly
the naked awareness, the self-existing wakefulness. This is for
student who are suitable, meaning those who have sharp mental
faculties. In stead of going through a lot of beating around the
bush, one would introduce them directly to their mind essence, to
their self-existing awareness.
Dzogchen is said to have great advantage but also great
danger. Why is this? Because all the teachings are ultimately and
finally resolved within the system of Dzogchen. This can be divided
into two parts, resolving all the teaching through intellectual
understanding and through experience.
To resolve through experience is what is the great
advantage or benefit in the sense that having pointed out and
recognizing directly naked awareness and simply makes that the main
part of practice. That is the point when there is an incredible
great benefit because that itself is the very direct and swift path
to enlightenment.
On the other hand, the great danger is when one just
leaves it as intellectual understanding, that "In Dzogchen there is
nothing to meditate upon. There is nothing to view. There is
nothing to carry out as an action." That becomes just a concept of
nihilism and is completely detrimental to progress. This is because
the final point of the teaching is conceptlessness, being beyond
intellectual thinking. Yet, what has happened is that one has
created an intellectual idea of what Dzogchen is and holds on to
that idea very tightly. This is a major mistake that can happen.
So, it is very important to take the teachings into one's personal
experience through the oral instructions of one's teacher.
Otherwise, simply to have the idea "I am meditating on Dzogchen" is
to completely miss the point.
Self-existing wakefulness is present within the
mind-stream of all sentient beings since primordial time. This
presence is something which should not be left as theory, but
should be acknowledged though one's experience. One first
recognizes it, then trains and attain stability in it. That is when
it is said that Dzogchen has great benefit. There is actually no
greater benefit than this.
Great danger means that when this is left as words of
mere intellectual understanding then one doesn't gain any
experience but merely holds some concept about it and lack the
nonconceptual quality. Conceptual mind is merely intellect whereas
experience to remain in the continuity of naked awareness; growing
used to it what is called "experiencing."
It is the same principle whether one talks of
Madhyamika, Mahamudra or Dzogchen. As is said in the Bodhicharya
Avatara, "When one's intellect holds neither the concept of
concreteness nor of inconcreteness, that is the state of not
conceptualizing." As long as one is not free from concepts, one's
view remains as mere intellectual understanding and the Dzogchen
view is then left as mere theory. One might then think "Dzogchen is
primordially empty, it is free from a basis. There is nothing to
meditate upon, no need to do anything If I meditate in the morning,
I am a buddha in the morning. When I recognize at night, I am a
buddha at night. The destined one does not even have to
meditate."
Actually, Dzogchen is the way to purify the most subtle
obscuration of dualistic knowledge - it is something quite in
credible. But if one only imagines it, if it is a mere theory,
thinking "I don't need to do anything, neither meditate nor
practice," [one's has completely missed the point]. There has been
many people thinking like this in the past.
Compared to straying into an intellectualized version
of Dzogchen, it is much more beneficial to practice according to
Madhyamika or Mahamudra where one goes along step by step,
alternating theory and experience within the structure of theory,
experience and realization. Proceeding gradually in this way one
becomes more and more clear about what is to be resolved and then
finally captures the "dharmakaya throne of nonmeditation." In this
graduated system there are some reference points along the various
paths and levels. But in Dzogchen the master will from the very
beginning point out the nonconceptual state, instructing the
student to remain free from concepts. It then happens that some
student will think, "I am free from concepts, I am never
distracted!" while walking around with vacantly gazing eyes. That
is called straying into intellectual understanding.
Later on, when we have to die, mere theory will not
help us whatsoever. Tilopa told Naropa, "Theory is like a patch. It
will wear and fall off." After dying, we will undergo various
pleasant and unpleasant experiences, intense panic, fear and
terror. Intellectual understanding will not be able to destroy
those fears; it cannot make confusion subside. So, merely to
generalize that one's essence is devoid of confusion is useless.
It's only a thought, another concept, which is ineffective at the
moment of death when it comes to deal with one's confusion.
Q: What will help then?
R: One needs to recognize the view of one's essence. If
one hasn't thoroughly acknowledged the correct view but only
constructed it from concepts, this intellectual understanding will
be useless. Its like knowing that there is a delicious meal to be
eaten. Without putting it into one's mouth one will never know what
is tastes like. Likewise, one needs to be totally free from the
merest flicker of doubt concerning the state of naked aware ness.
Jigmey Lingpa said about having stability in awareness, "At this
point there is no need for 100 panditas and their thousands of
explanations. One will know what is sufficient. Even when
questioned by these scholars, one will not give rise to doubt. So
the main point is to be stable in awareness through experience.
This awareness is not introduced through an
intellectual understanding where one only has the idea of it. When
a qualified master encounters a worthy student it is like iron
striking flint creating fire immediately. When such two persons
meet together it's possible to be free from doubt.
When one doesn't feel any doubt, no matter how much one
may try, that is the proof of having recognized the mind essence.
But if it's possible to start doubting, thinking "I wonder how it
is, what shall I do?" that is the proof of having mere intellectual
understanding.
This difference between theory and experience is what I
basically meant by saying that Dzogchen has both great benefit and
great danger.
When a practitioner is introduced to naked awareness he
will be able to attain enlightenment in that very body and lifetime
because in the moment of recognizing the essence of awareness, the
obscuration of dualistic knowledge is absent. This is called
"touching the fruition." In this respect there are three ways:
taking ground as path, taking path as path, and taking fruition as
path. Receiving the pointing-out instruction means that one takes
fruition as path. That is why it is so precious. So don't let it
stray into mere theory.
Experience is said to be the "adornment of awareness."
Awareness is present within all beings; whoever has mind has
awareness since it is the mind's essence. The relationship between
mind and awareness is mind being like the shadow of one's hand and
awareness being the hand itself. In this way, there is not one
single sentient being who does not have awareness. We might hear
about awareness and then think "I understand, awareness is just
such and such." This mental construct is totally useless - from the
very first the absence of mental fabrication is crucial. As is
said, "Within the naked dharmadhatu of non- fabrication."
Introducing awareness means to point out the absence of
mental fabrication. Otherwise it becomes an introduction to mere
discursive thought. [Laughs]
Q: What is the difference between the practice of
Dzogchen and that of the Anuttara Yoga Tantra in the system of the
New Schools, (gsar ma)? It was taught that all the eight lower
vehicles are contained within Dzogchen, so how does the difference
come about?
R: In the system of the New Schools, there are first of
all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra,
and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father
Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara
Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School,
Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother
tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen].
However, there are no explicit teachings on Togal in Anuttara. That
is the main difference, whereas it is taught that there is no
difference whatsoever between "essence Mahamudra" and Dzogchen in
meaning - only in terminology.
Concerning the inclusion of the lower vehicles in the
highest is "All phenomena of samsara and nirvana are included with
the expanse of awareness." That is the meaning of "inclusion."
Q: There are many kinds of conceptual practices in
Anuttara Yoga such as visualization and manipulations of the nadis
and pranas. How do the fit into the Dzogchen system?
R: These practices actually belong to the systems of
Mahayoga and Anu yoga. However, in Ati Yoga which should be
effortless, free from fixation, these practices are applied as
"means for enhancement." Q: From where does the tradition of giving
the transmission of the pointing-out instruction originate?
R: The first origin is what we call the "mind
transmission of the victorious ones." 
After that
there was the "sign transmission of vidyadharas" and today we have
the "oral transmission of great masters." First, the mind
transmission of the victorious ones, was when the manifestation
aspect of Samantabhadra appeared in a bodily form and the five
families of victorious ones recognized dharmata by merely seeing
this bodily form. 
This was mind
transmission through simply manifesting as a deity without the need
for any conversation. This mind transmission seems to have
gradually degenerated. Following that, by means of the sign
transmission of vidyadharas such masters as Garab
Dorje, Shri
Singha and Guru Rinpoche recognized the
self-existing wakefulness of dharmata through a simply gesture such
as a finger pointing at the sky. Finally, Guru Rinpoche, The Eight
Indian Vidyadharas as well as the Tibetan King, Subject and
Companion [Trisong Deutsen, Vairotsana and Yeshe Tsogyal]
and so forth gave teachings through oral transmission. This oral
transmission which comes from India and is not a Tibetan invention,
was originally imparted by whispering through a copper tube such as
in the case of Vairotsana into whose ear was
whispered the sentence, "The single sphere of dharmakaya,
self-existing wakefulness, inconceivable reality, is present within
the mind of sentient beings. Oral transmission literally means
"transmitted into the ear."
In the case of the Kagyu lineage, Tilopa stated, "I
have no human masters. My master is Vajradhara himself." 
So,
figuratively speaking, Vajradhara gave the teachings to Tilopa and
Tilopa transmitted them orally to Naropa who then passed then on to
Marpa. He gave them to Milarepa and he again to Gampopa from whom
they were orally transmitted to the "four great and eight lesser
lineages.
In the case of the
Nyingma lineage, Guru Rinpoche, Vimalamitra and Vairotsana passed the teachings
on chiefly as an oral transmission to the Twenty-five Disciples headed by
the King, Subject and Companion. Here Dzogchen was transmitted as
the pointing-out of the expression of awareness; not to awareness
itself but to its expression which is dharmata. From this point,
the Twenty-five Disciples passed the teaching on to the Eighty
Tibetan Siddhas and others such as the various oral lineages as
well as the treasure lineages, so that this transmission has been
uninterrupted down until our own root guru. If the lineage had been
broken there would be no pointing-out and recognition
of awareness.
Q: Why is this pointing-out instruction considered so
important?
R: That is self-evident. Isn't awareness the actual
path for attaining enlightenment? There is nothing more important
than recognizing it and become a buddha [laughs]. If you put all
the riches in the world on one side and the pointing out of
awareness on the other, awareness will be more valuable for
enlightenment.
Q: Having received the pointing-out instruction and
recognized, will that itself be sufficient or how should one
train?
R: Once one has received the pointing-out instruction
there is the chance of either recognizing it or not. But a student
who has actually recognized will have enough for this entire
lifetime in the "single sufficient instruction." The same goes for
the bardo state. Yet, one can still apply the paths of Mahayoga and
Anu yoga for enhancement and for clearing away hindrances. Once one
has recognized one's essence, it is like a fire that only will
blaze up more intensely the more firewood is added; the fire will
never diminish with the adding of wood. Similarly, there will be
benefit from applying the paths of Mahayoga and Anu yoga; even
Hinayana practice will be beneficial.
According to one's ability one can apply what one feels
inclined towards - like gathering honey from many different
flowers. Or, simply to cultivate and practice the recognition of
awareness alone will be sufficient for attaining enlightenment
within this body and lifetime. All the different practices of
Mahayoga and Anu yoga, as in the system of Jamgon Kongtrul the
First, are for the purpose of attaining stability in awareness.
While benefiting beings one can become more stable in awareness. As
I already mentioned, fire blazes up and increases the more wood is
added; it is not the opposite way.
Having recognized one's essence, one should sustain its
continuity. There will be no benefit from simply leaving it with "I
have recognized!" It is necessary to maintain the continuity of
awareness until all confusion and conceptual thinking has been
exhausted. That itself is the measure; when thoughts are exhausted
then it is enough. There is no more need for meditation or for
"sustaining the continuity."
Q: Although Rinpoche has a large monastery in
Boudhanath, Kathmandu, I notice that he spends most of his time up
at Nagi Gompa Retreat Center. Why is that?
R: As a matter of fact, it is said, "In this age of
degeneration, carry the burden of the Doctrine. If you are not able
to do so, simply the fear that the teachings will die out occurring
in your mind for but instant will have tremendous merit." For this
reason, the purpose of building a monastery with a gathering of the
sangha of monks - as just an image of the doctrine in this dark age
- is that we have the great hope that they will practice the
tradition of the Dharma. Whether or not the monks individually do
any practice is their own business. But if they just wear the robes
on their bodies, cut the hairs on their heads and gather together
in a group of merely four monks, the benefit of accumulating merit
and purifying one's obscurations will result from the respect,
faith and donations one can make as a benefactor, no matter how
insignificant one's contribution or faith may be. This is
independent of whether or not the monks misbehave or misappropriate
their donations; that is totally up to themselves. For the
benefactors, their will be the blessings of the Buddha when they
make a donation to a gathering of just four monks. Their will be no
failure in that for the patrons themselves. It is for this reason
that I took the effort to build a monastery. Moreover, this age is
the time when Buddhism is slowly dying out, like the sun about to
depart while setting over the mountains in the west. Considering
this combined with having received the command of His Holiness
Gyalwa Karmapa, we have constructed this insignificant
monastery.
The place up a Nagi Gompa was initially build by the
meditator and hermit Kharsha Rinpoche as a hermitage for his
following of monks and nuns. After he passed away, the place was
offered to Karmapa who then placed me as a caretaker. So I, this
old man here, is just a caretaker [laughs]. That is the only reason
why I live up here; I am not at all like Milarepa, living in
mountain retreats and caves after renouncing samsara. But I have a
nice spot to sleep on and a warm place in the sun [laughs]. That is
how I live.
Q: What is the benefit and purpose of doing retreat
practice?
R: With many distractions one is not able to practice
the Dharma properly. Distraction means a lot of business, noise and
things to do. When going up in the mountains there will be less
distraction. That is the reason for mountain retreat. In addition
to that, if one is able to keep some discipline, remaining in
solitude without allowing outsiders to visit and not going out
oneself, there will be no other distraction than that made by one's
own mind. External distractions have been eliminated. That is the
purpose of seclusion.
When distractions have been abandoned one can exert
oneself in the practice. Through exertion it is possible to destroy
confusion. When confusion falls away, enlightenment is attained.
That is the whole reason [laughs].
Q: Finally but not least, does Rinpoche have any
special advice for the readers of Vajradhatu Sun who are primarily
householders?
R: They should first of all receive the pointing-out
instruction and recognize their essence. Having recognized, they
should refrain from losing its continuity and then mingle that with
their daily activities. There are basically four kinds of daily
actions traditionally called moving, sitting, eating and lying
down. We don't always only sit or only move about; we alternate
between the two. In addition we eat, shit and sleep. So there
actually seem to be five kinds [laughs]. But at all times, in all
situations, one should try not to lose the continuity of the
practice. One should try to be able to mingle the practice with
daily life. As one gets more accustomed, any amount of daily life
activities will only cause nondualistic awareness to develop and
become the adornment of this undistracted awareness, free from
being obscured or cleared.
When one is able to mingle practice with the activities
of daily life, these activities will then be beneficial and devoid
of any harm whatsoever. That is if one has already recognized one's
essence correctly. Without the correct recognition one will get
carried away by the daily activities - one will have no stability.
Lacking stability is like a strand of hair in the wind bending
according to how the wind blows whereas a needle will be stable no
matter how small it is. Even a very thin needle cannot be bent by
the wind. Once one has truly recognized one's essence one cannot be
carried away by the activities of daily life, just as a needle that
is stable. Dualistic mind is completely unstable, like a hair that
is just ready to move by the tiniest breeze; it falls prey to the
five external sense objects. Awareness, on the other hand, when
properly recognized, does never fall subject to sense objects. It
is like a needle that is unmoved by the wind.
—Translated by Erik Pema Kunsang. © Rangjung
Yeshe Translations & Publications, 1985.
This interview appeared in the Vajradhatu Sun, in
an abbrieviated form.
Some of the questions were asked by Dana Chubb.