The Tranquil Calm

An Eternal Now SG

Excerpts from from two conversations I had with Thusness in August 2006.

Thusness:

"One should mentally let go of everything, then the clarity of presence is real strength. Letting go of all things is extremely important to create the calmness for Presence to surface. Otherwise what one glimpse is just a moment of our true nature, there is no strength."

"When you sit and meditate, just learn how to let go completely everything, until you experience unsurpassed calm and tranquillity, then be mindful."

"When the presence is experienced, the letting go is even more crucial. When meditating, drop everything including your Buddha Nature. There is nothing to keep. This must be the attitude mentally, spiritually."

"First let go completely the body, feel like if anyone wants it, give it away... just let go of it... everything... this is prepare you to experience the most subtle."

"Your letting go must be more thorough than any nihilist, your Presence must be more thorough than any realist, through the right understanding of emptiness."

"When you are practicing, it might not be easy to go through, because we engaged in so much intellectual activities and do not really practice impermanence and emptiness. Though we experienced Presence, the root is not strong and we are unable to contain the experience. Being real to impermanence is not intellectual or conceptual, it is total disengaging mentally... it must result in deep and serene calmness. This is a very important factor for true Presence to surface."

(on whether samatha and vipassana can be practiced at the same time): "Nope. Concentration can come first and lead to insight later and vice versa. There can be great intensity of clarity and presence and understanding of our Buddha Nature, but suffering will still exist. This is because of us not being able to let go... we focus too much on the luminosity and claim only in words about the emptiness nature. The strength that must be resulted from disbanding and letting go is not experienced. That will cause suffering. This is like the case of 'TheVoice' (a friend of ours), a certain aspect of luminosity is experienced but there is no strength and without good karmic conditions, he will not be able to overcome it that easily."

"The experience of true presence has to be as natural as possible, it is a reflection of our purity due to the loosening of inner bond. However for one that has experienced Presence, he is able to feel the Presence in and out like a deliberate attempt. This is because he is able to go beyond thoughts and concepts, but the attachment is still working behind him. It depends what energy is stronger. So we must practice letting go through correct understanding of impermanence and emptiness. It is not easy to let go, the mind will tend to identify, and the identification will make us cling. The state of Presence can become an object of experience for a practitioner to cling, and that becomes a problem."

"There is nothing wrong with the experience of Presence, but it is the attachment (that hinders). It is the subtle attachment that prevents us from deep sleep because we are unwilling to let go of that experience (even into sleep). Though one will not feel anything wrong or it does not disturb one much, it is not a form of achievement as described. It is a retrogression instead. When one is able to let go and let everything subside, even the loss of consciousness, it is a more profound state instead. It has to be a natural momentum that is being built up, until the propensities is gone, the letting go is complete, it is illuminated everywhere."

"Total Presence is Nirvana, at least to me. To me, there is no further. If the letting go is thorough, then the Presence is complete."

"There is a great difference between subtle attachment that we (become) unwilling (to) go into sleep, and letting the conditions take place without self, just empty phenomenon that takes its own course."

"I do not (generally) advice people to go into experiencing of Buddha Nature directly. One should always start from developing the qualities of mind, to experience the deep calmness resulting from settling our thoughts. Still our mind (first), then (develop) wisdom. It can be any practices as long as it leads us to the experience of calmness, (be it) mindfulness of breath, or mindfulness itself, or chanting. One must experience this calmness first, because it is the 'ground' that strengthen other experience. However, some people are vested with the conditions to experience the end-result first, then they have to return to these practices to stabilize the experience. Like experiencing our Buddha Nature directly, then the entire life becomes the unfolding and understanding of this experience, like those experiencing 'I AMness'. It is a mistaken identity. Due to our karmic propensities, they cannot discern the nature of that experience. However after many years of contemplation, they are able to have deeper glimpse of it. And the next stage is the experience of no-self to further refine our understanding. The Mind then is experienced as a crystal clear mirror, there is no-I. Then emptiness must step in to know that there is no mirror in the first place reflecting anything. The manifestation is the arising is the Buddha Nature. There is no mirror bright at all, the arising is the Buddha Nature itself. Samsara is Nirvana. Even with this illumination, one is not able to overcome the defilement, our karmic propensities, because they do not start from the perfection of calmness, there is no strength. They are unable to 'control' their thoughts (meaning settle their thoughts)."

"When we reach a state of deep calmness and we turn it into mindfulness, then there is the experience of blissfulness, clarity, vitality and wisdom. Stilling the body and mind only results in a deep and stable calmness that gathers strength. For the other qualities to arise, it needs the direct experience and intuitive wisdom."

"That is why I told Longchen to eliminate the (attachment to) Presence and start experiencing the deep calmness by letting go. The letting go is to settle the mind till he is about to have mastery over the thought patterns. This is very important for progress. Direct perception is crucial, because Buddha Nature cannot be understood conceptually. But without the ground of deep calmness, there is no strength. And one might suffer because we do not know how to deal with these experiences."

"After Longchen has more experience of the no-self nature of the pristine awareness, the next step is to gather strength through experiencing that sense of calmness and tranquillity and then fuse his anatta experience into this tranquil calm. Then experience the total dissolving of the consciousness of Presence into deep sleep. Dare to face the great death and be nothing."

"Merge completely into the place as if we were never there before... love and fuse completely into nothingness... don't worry about anything... total wakefulness when waking and complete death in deep sleep. This is true Presence according to conditions. The mental state of sleep must emerge before we become no one there."

"When this is perfectly clear (meaning you go into deep sleep by controlling the thought patterns and slow down our thoughts), we will enter into sleep. That is why I said when someone says that they are so aware that (they) bring (the awareness) beyond the night, (that) is not true experience. Because there is no control of thoughts at all. This is due to the lack of practice or overlooking the practice of deep calmness that provides the ground of controlling thought patterns. This is very, very, important. In fact that is always the base of practice. That is the simplest way of keeping the mind (that) is taught to all levels."

"Chant first, even if one does not have the capacity of understanding anything. Any form of practice must start from there... that is the best, then progress slowly. However if the capacity and conditions are already there and (the practitioner is) so close to experiencing the more profound experience of our pristine awareness, we have to lead one to the experience first, then later slowly lead him into the experience of the tranquil calmness to stabilize the experience."

"Any form of experience must lead one to experience the tranquil calm, it comes from keeping the mind still. But stilling of mind comes easier from stilling the body first. But this state will not (directly result in the) experience of the luminous clarity of our pristine awareness. The posture is very important, and watching our breath is best to me."

"Mindfulness has the effect of luminosity and calmnesss. (It is an) ingenious way towards enlightenment. But to come to the understanding of everything as awareness like the experience of Ken Wilber requires deep yuan (conditions)."

"I do not like to talk about 'I AM'. But 'I AM' is a very important state. However, I talk more about no-self and emptiness and our pristine awareness. Most of the time (I talk about) the happening, nothing about the source, and later the spontaneous arising as the expression of luminosity and vitality. But never about the 'Self' or 'I' or anything. Only for the explanation we spoke of the 'Self' when comparing to the tathagatagarbha sutras and vedanta teachings."

"Meditative posture is really important to still the mind. When we are young, we should keep this posture and use it to help keep our thoughts. You must experience the entire body as no more there, no more a hindrance and completely still just like the last time you lost the sense of your lower half of your body, except that it is your entire body this time."

"Straighten your back when you meditate. This is a good exercise."

"Sitting meditation is important, it will help you still your mind and heighten your awareness. You must learn to still your body first, the experience similar to the lower half of your body must be extended to the whole body. When you are able to still your mind, just motionless and when you sit, it is stable and still. It then comes to the mind, to watch the breath and settle your thoughts. Practice this until you can calm your thoughts through your breath. Once you are able to still your thoughts or settle your thoughts, then start to be aware, until you feel the full presence of your sensation, taste, touch, etc. Sense them. If possible contemplate on what Buddhaghosa said, 'Only the thinking, no thinker', 'The taste, no one tasting', till directness arises. Keep practicing this if possible in the morning or afternoon, not night, till you are able to control your thought pattern."

"During waking state, practice mindfulness. When your feet touches the floor... When your hand touches anything... Spend time, just like what Eckhart Tolle said in The Power of Now and A New Earth. When you swallow your saliva... feel the sensation completely, then relax and don't practice that at night, until morning. Till one day you tell me you know what has thought pattern got to do with calmness and how awareness is being misidentified with self and what are the relationships. What is bliss and clarity. Then when you experience no-self and our pristine awareness and clearly knows that is awareness, tell me why is it everything. Challenging and going beyond thought can be a painful experience if it is not practiced correctly, because we have been using thoughts and it will come, so do not underestimate it."

"Exercise more, a healthy body for a healthy mind. it will help your practice."

"In meditation, content of the mind is not important. It is the quality of the mind - peace, bliss, tranquillity, calmness are not content. Even in deep relaxation, you do not want to chat in your mind, you simply let go. The content and meaning isn't important at all. You don't have to understand anything. Nothing to understand at all. So don't worry, just the sensation, the raw sensation. But for start, you will contemplate 'What is no-self', 'What is directness', 'What are words'. During meditation, you will surely ask. It is ok, but start with calming the mind first before you contemplate. When you contemplate, you can also be mindful. The two can go hand in hand, it doesn't matter. When you experience directness, concepts and thoughts will be replaced with directness gradually. But you must precede with mindfulness of breath to settle the thoughts first, to have mastery over thoughts, or the ability to settle thoughts through your breath."

geis SG

Excerpts from from two conversations I had with Thusness in August 2006.

Thusness:

"When you sit and meditate, just learn how to let go completely everything, until you experience unsurpassed calm and tranquillity, then be mindful."

"First let go completely the body, feel like if anyone wants it, give it away... just let go of it... everything... this is prepare you to experience the most subtle."

"Your letting go must be more thorough than any nihilist, your Presence must be more thorough than any realist, through the right understanding of emptiness."

"Total Presence is Nirvana, at least to me. To me, there is no further. If the letting go is thorough, then the Presence is complete."

"I do not (generally) advice people to go into experiencing of Buddha Nature directly. One should always start from developing the qualities of mind, to experience the deep calmness resulting from settling our thoughts. Still our mind (first), then (develop) wisdom. It can be any practices as long as it leads us to the experience of calmness, (be it) mindfulness or breathe, or mindfulness itself, or chanting. One must experience this calmness first, because it is the 'ground' that strengthen other experience. However, some people are vested with the conditions to experience the end-result first, then they have to return to these practices to stabilize the experience. Like experiencing our Buddha Nature directly, then the entire life becomes the unfolding and understanding of this experience, like those experiencing 'I AMness'. It is a mistaken identity. Due to our karmic propensities, they cannot discern the nature of that experience. However after many years of contemplation, they are able to have deeper glimpse of it. And the next stage is the experience of no-self to further refine our understanding. The Mind then is experienced as a crystal clear mirror, there is no-I. Then emptiness must step in to know that there is no mirror in the first place reflecting anything. The manifestation is the arising is the Buddha Nature. There is no mirror bright at all, the arising is the Buddha Nature itself. Samsara is Nirvana. Even with this illumination, one is not able to overcome the defilement, our karmic propensities, because they do not start from the perfection of calmness, there is no strength. They are unable to 'control' their thoughts (meaning settle their thoughts)."

"Straighten your back when you meditate. This is a good exercise."

"Exercise more, a healthy body for a healthy mind. it will help your practice."

thank you for this essential sharing.

a question though. when one experiences presence as the 'i am', the sense of self is so heightened to such a point, is it actually possible that one can break free through the same continuous practice if it keeps reifying that sensation?

from memory yes the sensation of presence does become an object of clinging, remember there were times when i constantly 'checked' to 'confirm its still there'. while its very confusing, there wasnt a question of doubt about the sense of self at that time. and this sense of heightened self does propel one without proper guidance to act or live forth in even more confusing ways.

from some of your previous posts was mentioned that the presence of 'i am' is actually not a necessary experience. i tend to agree with this, lest there are also benefits to this experience?

longchen SG

Very good sharing. Thank you.

Let go is a very important part. To be able to let go completely is a true blessing

'Confusion' is also self.. its the desire to seek the correct answer.

An Eternal Now SG

thank you for this essential sharing.

There are different degrees to the I AM insight/experience. The initial experience will be like individual, the I AM is still mixed with a sense of an individuality, personality to it, even though it is beyond thought (it is not mental personality, just a very individualized/personified sense of Presence).

Later, through continuous investigation, self inquiry and letting go, the sense of personality is separated from the I AMness. In other words the 'I' disappears, what's left is AMness, which is experienced as impersonal and universal. So at this point, as I wrote in Certainty of Being, "I notice that the sense of self dissolves just by resting in awareness, where previously there was a sense of self and locality tied to awareness."

After the I AM phase, there is non-dual, where subject and object, are dissolved into One Mind, a unified reality. Everything you see, hear, smell is only Mind, not divided into perceiver and perceived. However there is still attachment to Mind/Awareness as inherent.

However to overcome the attachment to a metaphysical Self be it individual or universal or unified, to totally overcome the "I AM" conceit as Buddha taught, the insight/realisation into Anatta has to arise. Thusness told me to refine the I AM experience through the 4 phases/aspects* (he also told me I will cycle through these phases again and again), then experience non dual, then penetrate Anatta and eventually Emptiness. From I AM to Emptiness, is a natural progression and maturation of insights on our Pristine Awareness, though a teacher to point out the right view so one does not get stuck at any stage is important.

*(from an old post about the 4 phases/aspects)

Thusness told me that at present try not to talk too much about non-dual (to someone else in another forum) and he also talked to me about the deepening of the "I AM" in 4 aspects: 1) the aspect of impersonality, 2) the aspect of the degree of luminosity, 3) the aspect of dissolving the need to re-confirm and abide in I AMness and understanding why such a need is irrelevant, 4) the aspect of experiencing effortlessness.

Impersonality will help dissolve the sense of self but it has the danger of making one attached to a metaphysical essence. It makes a practitioner feel "God".

The degree of luminosity refers to feeling with entire being, feel wholely and directly without thoughts. Feeling 'realness' of whatever one encounters, the tree bark, the sand, etc. (see the next post)

Dissolving the need to re-confirm is important as whatever is done is an attempt to distant itself from itself, if there is no way one can distant from the "I AM", the attempt to abide in it is itself an illusion.

On the other hand, abiding in presence is a form of meditative practice, like chanting, and leads to absorption. It can result in the oceanic experience. But once one focuses on the 4 aspects mentioned above, one will have that experience too.

According to Thusness model on the four phases/aspects of I AMness, as the I AMness experience matures, we will overcome and dissolve the need to re-confirm or abide in Self. After all any attempts to re-confirm is distancing ItSelf from ItSelf.

from some of your previous posts was mentioned that the presence of 'i am' is actually not a necessary experience. i tend to agree with this, lest there are also benefits to this experience?

I would say that if you are strictly following the path of Vipassana ala Theravadin style, you do not go through the I AM experience (particularly: Burmese Vipassana style). That is why Kenneth Folk distinguished First Gear from Second Gear (I AM), and this is a valid point. First Gear, i.e. Burmese Vipassana meditation, does not lead to I AM realization and experience, and he said in his interview that "It is a completely different category of practice, and this needs to be explicitly understood. This is not vipassana as I learned it in Burma. They never told me to do this. They do not talk about this, so you can do vipassana until the cows come home, but unless you understand that the idea with 2nd Gear is to turn the light around and look at the supposed knower, you are not making the leap to the next level".

Example of practitioners who focused on first gear vipassana are Daniel M. Ingram, who followed strict vipassana path and went straight to non-dual and anatta realization without going through the I AM stage.

Those following Vipassana path will climb the insight stages (nanas) but will not realise the luminosity until later phase of their practice, i.e. Anagami stage, where they penetrate into the non-duality of subject and object and realise everything as luminous manifestation. Those who wants to follow the Direct Path in penetrating in one's luminous Buddha Nature will usually go through the I AM phase first, via methods like self inquiry. However the initial insight does not mean one has realised Anatta and Emptiness, more like the I AM.

Thusness also commented in Daniel's forum Dharma Overground in early 2009 (and I highly some parts for emphasis),

"Hi Gary,

It appears that there are two groups of practitioners in this forum, one adopting the gradual approach and the other, the direct path. I am quite new here so I may be wrong.

My take is that you are adopting a gradual approach yet you are experiencing something very significant in the direct path, that is, the ‘Watcher’. As what Kenneth said, “You're onto something very big here, Gary. This practice will set you free.” But what Kenneth said would require you to be awaken to this ‘I’. It requires you to have the ‘eureka!’ sort of realization. Awaken to this ‘I’, the path of spirituality becomes clear; it is simply the unfolding of this ‘I’.

On the other hand, what that is described by Yabaxoule is a gradual approach and therefore there is downplaying of the ‘I AM’. You have to gauge your own conditions, if you choose the direct path, you cannot downplay this ‘I’; contrary, you must fully and completely experience the whole of ‘YOU’ as ‘Existence’. Emptiness nature of our pristine nature will step in for the direct path practitioners when they come face to face to the ‘traceless’, ‘centerless’ and ‘effortless’ nature of non-dual awareness.

Perhaps a little on where the two approaches meet will be of help to you.

Awakening to the ‘Watcher’ will at the same time ‘open’ the ‘eye of immediacy’; that is, it is the capacity to immediately penetrate discursive thoughts and sense, feel, perceive without intermediary the perceived. It is a kind of direct knowing. You must be deeply aware of this “direct without intermediary” sort of perception -- too direct to have subject-object gap, too short to have time, too simple to have thoughts. It is the ‘eye’ that can see the whole of ‘sound’ by being ‘sound’. It is the same ‘eye’ that is required when doing vipassana, that is, being ‘bare’. Be it non-dual or vipassana, both require the opening of this 'eye of immediacy'."

Also, back in March 2008 in a thread where I wrote some of my non-dual experiences and also asked Thusness if I AM is necessary (in Death, Consciousness, Nondual Perception)

He wrote:

"...Yes AEN, you are beginning to experience what that is known in the Advaita Vedanta as ‘Atman’ except that the experiences you had did not lead to you to the wrong conclusion. This is because the doctrine of anatta has sunk sufficiently deep in your inmost consciousness. Although the 'teaching of anatta' helps to prevent you from landing into wrong views, the downside is it also denies you from experiencing that deep and utimate conviction, that certainty beyond doubt of your very own existence -- "I AM'. This is a very important factor for Advaita practitioners...."

"Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Then how about for a Buddhist, does he need to experience " that deep and utimate conviction, that certainty beyond doubt of your very own existence -- "I AM'."?

Yes it is still important (in my opinion). It is the experience of our luminosity. There must be certainty of our luminosity but this luminosity is empty of an essence. This is most difficult to understand and the purpose of insight into our emptiness and anatta nature (to me) is really just about 'effortless sustainability'."

Also in a blog article in October 2009, Thusness wrote about the importance to give rise to the *realization* of I AMness (especially in the 'Direct Path' that emphasizes directly realising one's true nature or luminosity):

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html

1. On Experience and Realization

One of the direct and immediate response I get after reading the articles by Rob Burbea and Rupert is that they missed one very and most important point when talking about the Eternal Witness Experience -- The Realization. They focus too much on the experience but overlook the realization. Honestly I do not like to make this distinction as I see realization also as a form of experience. However in this particular case, it seems appropriate as it could better illustrate what I am trying to convey. It also relates to the few occasions where you described to me your space-like experiences of Awareness and asked whether they correspond to the phase one insight of Eternal Witness. While your experiences are there, I told you ‘not exactly’ even though you told me you clearly experienced a pure sense of presence.

So what is lacking? You do not lack the experience, you lack the realization. You may have the blissful sensation or feeling of vast and open spaciousness; you may experience a non-conceptual and objectless state; you may experience the mirror like clarity but all these experiences are not Realization. There is no ‘eureka’, no ‘aha’, no moment of immediate and intuitive illumination that you understood something undeniable and unshakable -- a conviction so powerful that no one, not even Buddha can sway you from this realization because the practitioner so clearly sees the truth of it. It is the direct and unshakable insight of ‘You’. This is the realization that a practitioner must have in order to realize the Zen satori. You will understand clearly why it is so difficult for those practitioners to forgo this ‘I AMness’ and accept the doctrine of anatta. Actually there is no forgoing of this ‘Witness’, it is rather a deepening of insight to include the non-dual, groundlessness and interconnectedness of our luminous nature. Like what Rob said, "keep the experience but refine the views".

Lastly this realization is not an end by itself, it is the beginning. If we are truthful and not over exaggerate and get carried away by this initial glimpse, we will realize that we do not gain liberation from this realization; contrary we suffer more after this realization. However it is a powerful condition that motivates a practitioner to embark on a spiritual journey in search of true freedom. :)

Also on another note, Thusness gives differing advices to people on what to practice. Some he would advice to practice vipassana, sometimes he advice self-inquiry, there was even once he adviced someone (who is deep into the I AM and penetrating into non-dual) to practice chanting as an antidote to her clinging to Presence. In fact in the conversation with Thusness I posted in this topic, his advice were mostly on Vipassana and experiencing Calmness (shamatha) - nothing about self-inquiry. It is only in I think 2008 where he started advicing me on self inquiry. It all depends on the person's conditions, he will meditate on the person's conditions before giving the appropriate advice. He isn't biased towards self inquiry, or biased towards vipassana. Especially when he also mentioned before, self inquiry isn't meant for everyone, and it has its dangers as well (for example, before the realisation of I AMness, one can experience utter confusion and suffer during self inquiry, and after I AMness one can be so attached to Presence and end up having poor and very little sleep). So it really depends on whether that person is vested with the conditions to go into that path, both the teacher and student must check/gauge their conditions. (however, I am also aware that Thusness doesn't want to be seen as a dharma teacher of sorts)

However, he also said that (hypothetically) if he starts a new sect or school, he will teach people self-inquiry as a starting practice, as he has gone through that path and will be able to guide and advice people more appropriately.

It does not mean that self inquiry is a better path than Vipassana, or that Vipassana is a better path than Self-Inquiry: it all depends on the practitioner, what works for him is the best. For Daniel Ingram, Vipassana is the best. For Thusness, Self Inquiry is very important to lead to the initial realization of Buddha Nature, and it is something he has had experienced with. At a later phase, Thusness also practiced Vipassana (when he came into Buddhism, he started contemplating on anatta).

If one follows the direct path however, one will go through the I AM phase, which as Thusness said is actually an important state though it isn't the end or final realisation (at least in Buddhism).

geis SG

*(from an old post about the 4 phases/aspects)

Thusness also commented in Daniel's forum Dharma Overground in early 2009 (and I highly some parts for emphasis),

"Hi Gary,

Also, back in March 2008 in a thread where I wrote some of my non-dual experiences and also asked Thusness if I AM is necessary (in Death, Consciousness, Nondual Perception)

He wrote:

"Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html

If one follows the direct path however, one will go through the I AM phase, which as Thusness said is actually an important state though it isn't the end or final realisation (at least in Buddhism).

i see :) thank you for the clear explanation.

longchen SG

*(from an old post about the 4 phases/aspects)

Thusness also commented in Daniel's forum Dharma Overground in early 2009 (and I highly some parts for emphasis),

"Hi Gary,

Also, back in March 2008 in a thread where I wrote some of my non-dual experiences and also asked Thusness if I AM is necessary (in Death, Consciousness, Nondual Perception)

He wrote:

"Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html

If one follows the direct path however, one will go through the I AM phase, which as Thusness said is actually an important state though it isn't the end or final realisation (at least in Buddhism).

Wow.. very detailed explanation.

longchen SG

thank you for this essential sharing.

from some of your previous posts was mentioned that the presence of 'i am' is actually not a necessary experience. i tend to agree with this, lest there are also benefits to this experience?

Hi Geis,

Just a sharing...

From my experience, the concentration practice such as 'focus on breathe' meditation will lead to the experience of I AM.

To me, I AM is an experience of Presence that is mixed with some unconscious attachment/seeking.

I dunno much about self-enquiry because i never really follow this practice... so can't comment on that.

But I do the mindfulness/vipassana practice of noting. That is, i make an effort to note and be mindful of all that is going on in the daily experience of life. From my experience, this can lead to the cutting away of the attachments associated with the I AM presence experience.

At I AM, presence is mixed with a sense of personal experience... This sense that expereince is personal give one's a feeling that the self ('I') is the doer/controller of one's action. It is felt that the decision making is that of the 'I'.

To me, to be able to identify the 'I' is a very important phase in order to progress.When the 'I' can be correctly identified as it arises, it can be dropped away. The 'I' can masquerade its presence in many situations and forms. So the identification of 'I' is an ever growing and skillful experience. The most common daily life experience is the hardest for the 'I' to be discovered. As mentioned, mindfulness practice is the method (at least for me).

There is a tricky part here which i am hesitant to write.. but felt that it is necessary but with risk. That is that, the noting practice should just be a noting. It should not be with the additonal 'action' of eliminating what is percieved as negative. This additonal action/intention of eliminating is actually also 'I/sense of self'. For example, in the mindfulness practice, one feel that anger has arised. By the normal convention of the memory, anger will be labelled as negative. The mind will automatically goes into elimination mode in order to try to kill/get rid of the arising anger. With this, the experience goes into a loop ... machiam the error of programing loop. It is just loop and loop. This is because the sense of self has took over to try to eliminate the anger.

Point is, just note everything. Don't let anything become more important than the noting to take over it... Here, i can't fnd a better way to describe. :)

The main difference in a 'self' and 'no-self (no 'I')' experience is that of center of reference. The experience with self is felt to be experience through a personal center that is you/I/me. The experience of no-self is experienced without this personal reference center.

Just a sharing. If it doesn't resonate...please disregard.

geis SG

Hi Geis,

Just a sharing...

From my experience, the concentration practice such as 'focus on breathe' meditation will lead to the experience of I AM.

To me, I AM is an experience of Presence that is mixed with some unconscious attachment/seeking.

I dunno much about self-enquiry because i never really follow this practice... so can't comment on that.

Point is, just note everything. Don't let anything become more important than the noting to take over it... Here, i can't fnd a better way to describe. :)

Just a sharing. If it doesn't resonate...please disregard.

Hi Longchen, thank you for this very clear explanation :)

yes what u say does resonate :) agree that labelling of negative/ positive does result in a loop of reifying the self.

once the loop is identified, noting the labelling and noting the 'act' of eliminating any negative thought opens up the mindfulness practice. its the identifying that is difficult. it is easier to discern this through focusing on the physical sensations aspect of feelings (vedana) as i find it more salient.

longchen SG

once the loop is identified, noting the labelling and noting the 'act' of eliminating any negative thought opens up the mindfulness practice.

Yah, Sir... that is very true indeed.

About the 'self/I', it is easier to identify it when we are alone... and is not interacting with others.

For my case, eating and walking are the easiest activties to be 'no-self'. There are just the actions without the 'I' there. Chewing is chewing, walking is walking...just pure action.

It is alot more difficult to see 'no-self' when we are interacting with others. This is because the very act of interacting with other implies there are others to interact with oneself. However it is possible.

I am just beginning to enter deeper into this phase... so can't be of much help. The key, that i see, is the daringness to drop the attachment of seeing others as separate. This is different from dropping all thoughts... because to maintain communication thoughts must be deployed. IMO, perhaps, before this phase can be maintained with any level of stability, a clear understanding of emptiness is firstly required. This is because the realisation of emptiness encompasses the insight that there is no-others. Without the clear insight of emptiness, it is very hard for the mind to be convinced that there are no one and no others.

wisdomeye SG

Wonderful exchange. Anyway, anyone here doing the shitankanza (spelling?) method, of just sitting...?

An Eternal Now SG

Wonderful exchange. Anyway, anyone here doing the shitankanza (spelling?) method, of just sitting...?

Japanese Zen is not common in Singapore.

But if the follow is an accurate description of Shikantaza, then yes I do practice it :)

Shikantaza: My thoughts on the practice of just sitting as an effective means to noticing that which is

In Shikantaza, we sit in a comfortable erect posture. Then we allow our awareness to be in its natural state - Zen Mind, Original Face, and realize this to be our ordinary everyday mind as it is. What exactly this means is we 'allow' our mind to just be aware in an entirely uncontrived manner. This can be surprisingly difficult for the beginner because most people are unconscious of subtle tensions and "efforts to do, to suppress or not do" something with their mind which are deeply habitual - thinking, analyzing, fantasizing etc. If we can 'just sit' and just be aware of what is, focusing on nothing in particular and allowing our minds to rest, let go and just be aware and rest as THAT - as-we-are - we will notice a sense of awareness opening up, of brightness, of peace and ease. If allowed further, we will notice energy and bliss at some deeper dimension of awareness as Being itself. Taken further we get an increasing, yet subtle sense of infinity and loss of identification with the separate self arising from sensory stimuli.

Implicit to this discussion is a distinction between awareness and mind. I am defining awareness as our basic fundamental nature - the Tao itself. Mind in this context, is defined as cognitive activities or functions arising out of the brain and possibly astral levels of being. Mind may be considered a tool like the body. The body rests and just sits there; the mind rests and just sits there unengaged. Awareness as the fundamental nature of 'you' sees both the mind and the body, but is neither mind nor body, nor is it dependent on mind and body for its existence and function. Awareness is prior to mind and body. Awareness is essential and unchanging; mind and body are epiphenomena existing in awareness.

The simple meditation practice of Shikantaza is this:
Just sit and be aware. The key then is to just be aware with no effort to be aware - no doing, just be natural awareness as it is. If you find yourself trying to be natural awareness as it is, then that is contrived and you have engaged the mind. Simply LET GO, relax, and be aware of what is, but of nothing in particular. In letting go and naturally being aware of what is you will find that natural still point. Allow the mind to ease off and open up. This can be practiced at all time during the day. Just be naturally aware, openly at ease, and spontaneously engaging - whether sitting or otherwise.

This is true vipassana. Uncontrived. To see the natural state of reality as it is.
We should allow ourselves to notice mind throughout this period of sitting, as with other particulars that arise; as mind is part of reality, and not to be rejected, as rejection is an act of mind, not awareness. Rejection is based on the false premises of mind. In so doing we will notice when we find ourselves having fallen into doing in which we 'try' to be open and relaxed, when this happens we are no longer in an uncontrived state of natural abiding. The whole process requires concentration; that is, being brightly aware of what is. Concentration in this sense simply means being naturally aware and not being distracted by having our attention divided by activities of mind. As concentration wanes, awareness may become dull and one my space out, or more often, one's thoughts will re-assert themselves and we will go off on a tangent of thought. When we notice this we allow the stream of thought to drop by letting go again of the activities of mind, and just rest brightly aware of what is.

So, it really is simple, just sit and be aware.

A further point. Do not concentrate on sensory stimuli in particular, as that is contrived, it is effort of mind to do something. See this subtle distinction. Awareness is brightly aware as its natural state, there is not effort - no doing. Just be aware of what is - environment and awareness itself - no artificial distinction between external and internal - just the continuum of awareness. This, however, does not mean we are practicing awareness of awareness, that again is a contrived condition, a use of mind to focus on awareness. In such a case we would be privileging one object of awareness over another, and that is a use of mind. Rather, we are just being aware, just sitting. Discrimination in terms of intention, demarcation, effort, judgment are all discursive faculties of mind. Awareness operates entirely through direct knowing or clearly apprehending the nature of what is - it simply sees it for itself. No recourse to the inferential faculties of mind.
So, Shikantaza or Dzogchen practice is simple on the surface, but there is much subtly and depth to it. Just sitting does not give it explanatory justice.

A final point on the body. Since the body is peripheral to awareness, it does not matter if the eyes are open or closed. Traditionally, they are open. There are merits and problems with both options. My recommendation is conclude this question by what feels natural to you. We do not wish to maintain unnatural, contrived states of body and mind in our practice. Awareness is the practice... drop all else.

In kind regards,

Adam.

An Eternal Now SG

Hi Geis,

Just a sharing...

From my experience, the concentration practice such as 'focus on breathe' meditation will lead to the experience of I AM.

To me, I AM is an experience of Presence that is mixed with some unconscious attachment/seeking.

I dunno much about self-enquiry because i never really follow this practice... so can't comment on that.

Point is, just note everything. Don't let anything become more important than the noting to take over it... Here, i can't fnd a better way to describe. :)

Just a sharing. If it doesn't resonate...please disregard.

Thanks for the clear post :)

wisdomeye SG

Japanese Zen is not common in Singapore.

But if the follow is an accurate description of Shikantaza, then yes I do practice it :)

hmm... yes, roughly. Who is Adam?

But I think at the start, it's not possible to dun be aware of awareness... IMO one can't start with juz being nondually aware. It's alright to check back awareness then let go, check back then dissolve. It is a crutch but necessary crutch.

One has to resolve attention first before dissolving attention owing to our tendencies but when trust & confidence is developed, not necessary. like a young kid learning to ride bicycle, one has to stop every very often at first to stand on his legs, until at one point, he can go on indefinitely without standing.

The real shikatanza is just being without any purpose. Very tough practice from the POV of our restless mind.

An Eternal Now SG

hmm... yes, roughly. Who is Adam?

Adam West is someone who used to frequent Dharma Overground and Kenneth Folk Dharma forum. Thusness and I thinks his posts are quite good. He has non-dual realisation and is recently moving into No Mind. Btw just curious, did you receive shikantaza instructions from a living teacher or do you read it from books?

I'd say non-dual awareness is not impossible but unavoidable, because awareness is not a state to be contrived by effort. Rather, your very essence is Awareness - right now effortlessly seeing, effortlessly reading these words, effortlessly observing the thoughts, effortlessly just being, without which nothing is or can be. As Daniel says, "the whole sensate universe by definition can't arise without the quality of awareness by definition". So it is not so much that we have to create a state of awareness, but rather a noticing and realising of what is always already so, just plain ordinary present awareness, that which allows everything to be seen and experienced. Awareness is always already self-aware by nature, it is by nature unfabricated vivid, self-knowing presence, that is what it is. We just need to recognise that... and, again and again (as we tend to get distracted by dualistic thoughts). You cant fabricate or create a state of awareness of awareness (that would be dualistic, as it implies two: someone becoming aware of something called awareness - which means there is still delusion of a being separate person), it is not that you have to go and find and be aware of something called 'awareness', there isn't a thing you can do to bring about awareness (it is already here!), rather you can only recognise that unfabricated self-knowing awareness that is already present as your very essence and already non-dual by nature, pervading and giving rise to all experiences.

It is just like you cannot create the sun, you can only realise that the sun is already hanging there behind the clouds. Even though clouds dissipating may make it easier to notice or recognise the sun, it doesnt mean that when there are clouds it's not there. In fact we can equally recognise awareness in the presence of thoughts.

What's very important here is to clarify your true identity: whether you are a person who can experience, be aware of, or lose awareness of Presence, or are you the naturally Self-Knowing/Self-Aware Awareness/Presence which experiences the illusory thought of being a person, or the illusory thought of having 'gained' or 'lost' Presence (as well as being aware in the absence of thoughts). What is important is not achieving a state you don't yet have, but clearing the delusion about who you are, and all threads of delusion of being an individual person separate from Reality itself. That is why simply inquiring 'Who Am I' will clear all doubts and confusion and lead the practitioner back to the Source.

Update: just found a very relevant pointer from this week's pointers by John Wheeler: "You have never been some limited, separate thing standing apart from reality. This recognition undermines once and for good the basis of all the seeking, suffering and doubt, which is predicated on being a limited “I” in the appearance. This you never were. So you are only what you are and always have been. Words can only point, but with or without the words, you are."

The real shikatanza is just being without any purpose. Very tough practice from the POV of our restless mind.

Attention/concentration is necessary, but not in the way we might think it is. It is more like resting in the recognition of naturally abiding awareness, than a focusing of sorts.

As Adam West wrote above: The whole process requires concentration; that is, being brightly aware of what is. Concentration in this sense simply means being naturally aware and not being distracted by having our attention divided by activities of mind. As concentration wanes, awareness may become dull and one my space out, or more often, one's thoughts will re-assert themselves and we will go off on a tangent of thought. When we notice this we allow the stream of thought to drop by letting go again of the activities of mind, and just rest brightly aware of what is.

and also,

A further point. Do not concentrate on sensory stimuli in particular, as that is contrived, it is effort of mind to do something. See this subtle distinction. Awareness is brightly aware as its natural state, there is not effort - no doing. Just be aware of what is - environment and awareness itself - no artificial distinction between external and internal - just the continuum of awareness. This, however, does not mean we are practicing awareness of awareness, that again is a contrived condition, a use of mind to focus on awareness. In such a case we would be privileging one object of awareness over another, and that is a use of mind. Rather, we are just being aware, just sitting.

And Zen Master Anzan Hoshin says:

http://www.wwzc.org/teisho/beginners.htm

One way of working with experience can be called the path of meditation. And this recognizes that we get very confused because we identify a lot with our names and stories and words and our attention is always scattering. And so we want to take this scattering and bring it to a kind of settled state so that instead of the mind flipping around to the past, the present, the future, and all of these different things that we are aware of, we want to find one thing that we are aware of and pay attention to it. And so we narrow our attention down and just pay attention to one thing instead of letting our attention scatter.

Now, if we catch any of you doing that here, you will be thrown out because that is not what we do. Zen is not about meditation. You cannot compare it to meditation. The problem is not the scattering. The scattering occurs because of focusing, because our attention contracts on something and then excludes everything else. So, simply focusing our attention on something else, say [counting] the breath or [focusing on] a mantra or a visualized image is exactly the same thing that we have been doing that has been confusing us in the first place, except that we are just going to learn how to do it better so that we can become even more thoroughly confused. Because all that we will have done is focus on one fragment of our experience. We will not understand what our experience in itself is, what our life in itself is, or who we are because the most fundamental question, of course, is what is it that is experiencing experience? What is it that is aware?

There are all kinds of things that we are aware of: Colours and forms and sounds, different ways of being aware, waking, sleeping, dreaming, all kinds of subtle states, yogic states and so on, which are possible. But those are all things that we are aware of. What is the awareness? Regardless of what we are aware of -- a colour, a person, a building, anger, fear -- what do all of those things have in common? They all have in common the fact that we are aware of them. Regardless of what we are experiencing, the basic fact is that there is this experiencing presenting itself as these experiences. And if we want to understand what that is, we have to work with the whole of our experience and we have to work with the process of how experience presents itself.

Also,

Toni Packer said, "There is no need for awareness to turn anywhere. It's here! Everything is here in awareness! When there is a waking up from fantasy, there is no one who does it. Awareness and the sound of a plane are here with no one in the middle trying to "do" them or bring them together. They are here together! The only thing that keeps things (and people) apart is the "me"-circuit with its separative thinking. When that is quiet, divisions do not exist."

Joan Tollifson ("student" of Toni), "This open being is not something to be practiced methodically. Toni points out that it takes no effort to hear the sounds in the room; it's all here. There's no "me" (and no problem) until thought comes in and says: "Am I doing it right? Is this 'Awareness'? Am I enlightened?" Suddenly the spaciousness is gone—the mind is occupied with a story and the emotions it generates."

As John Welwood says: "This larger awareness is self-existing: it cannot be fabricated or manufactured because it is always present, whether we notice it or not."

And Shayne says, "

their is no great void.

their is nothingness.

no one thing ness.

this emptiness you speak of springs from the self.

when i was a boy of 13 i remember attempting to look for something. i found it. my attention. i looked in the mirror. i looked at my eyes. i looked at my eyebrows....my lips. then i just stopped. my " mind " unfocused and i was pure awareness.

when i was a young adult i was without i till i met my ex.

now that im 38 i am unpreoccupied with my attention. ive learnt my " lesson "

when not thinking the attention dont exist.

when not focusing on a particular sense object the attention dont exist.

attention is insecureity is doubt.

close your eyes.............the eyes naturally open by themselves when you are no longer focusing.

what is was and always will be is this moment.

bipolar is a conditioning of the mind.

i dont believe in the id the ego or the super ego.

i dont believe in the subconscious.

i dont believe in time.

.........................

what creates is the same question as what hears.

i dont believe we create ourselves............not in the first sense.

we create our own reality if you may.

money for example is a creation of ours we accept as fact.

but what hears?

me is a word.

i is a word.

if you get rid of words and use defiantions.....what hears?

the sum of all our parts.

paying attention to the breath something still hears sounds.

what is it?

we hear sounds regardless if we pay attention or not.

we aware the world wether we like it or not.

it is the sum of all our parts.

the awareness.

and this has nothing to do with the focus or the attention.

it is that which sees. hears. feels and tastes all at once.

.........................

sounds arise.

their is no listener.

they arise as themselves.

but what is this listener that people think they have?

it is none other then then attention.

.........................

their is no doer.

their is just doing.

their is no thinker.

their is just thought.

their is no attention.

it is just awareness.

wisdomeye SG

Attention/concentration is necessary, but not in the way we might think it is. It is more like resting in the recognition of naturally abiding awareness, than a focusing of sorts.

And Zen Master Anzan Hoshin says:

http://www.wwzc.org/teisho/beginners.htm

Also,

.........................

sounds arise.

their is no listener.

they arise as themselves.

but what is this listener that people think they have?

it is none other then then attention.

.........................

their is no doer.

their is just doing.

their is no thinker.

their is just thought.

their is no attention.

it is just awareness.

Hi AEN,

As you have said, awareness is always there. Trungpa Rp said it quite well, awareness is like the wind, juz leave the windows open. I think the Surangama sutra said it very well about awareness.

However, it is not possible to juz go into full-fledged awareness immediately. We rely on clutches, first resolve attention to cut distractions, then dissolve attention to cut fixation. That's how i see it. The constant checking back to be aware of awareness is inevitable and also helpful to keep the meditation fresh until one goes on to deeper trust of the paranormicness. I think that's the same as what u mean by attention or mindfulness.

Fabrication is always inevitable till the deepest realisation.

I talk like i understand... actually i'm juz a novice... hee hee ... no, i have not received instructions on Japanese meditation at all. I am juz struck at the profundity of the technique of Shikantaza... personally i dun really like to dwell too much on the analysis of meditating... as Longchen said quite well,

Let go is a very important part. To be able to let go completely is a true blessing

'Confusion' is also self.. its the desire to seek the correct answer.

An Eternal Now SG

Hi AEN,

As you have said, awareness is always there. Trungpa Rp said it quite well, awareness is like the wind, juz leave the windows open. I think the Surangama sutra said it very well about awareness.

Fabrication is always inevitable till the deepest realisation.

On the other hand, full fledge awareness is always already present whether you notice or not ;) In fact there is no half fledge, full fledge... there is just Awareness. It is just thoughts that separates it.

For me if I'm lost in distractions, I might ask, Who is distracted? And then you see that it is not so much that I am a separate self being distracted from Awareness, all that is happening is that thoughts are occuring, there is misidentification with the mind (thoughts) and the body, but in actuality there are simply thoughts appearing in the Presence of Awareness which I am. You have in actuality never been (someone) distracted from Awareness, because you Are Awareness, you are not a limited self separate from Reality.

It's like misidentifying yourself as some objects or characters in the cinema screen, and then asking "where is the screen?" and then you may then try to 'resolve the attention', do something about it in the movie etc but with the delusion of still being that separate self and hence not really resolving the issue - actually, the screen is always here, you just misidentify yourself as a particular object and overlook your true nature as Total Presence (i.e. the screen). In fact as I see it... attention can only change from one object to another (in the cinema screen). We are always paying attention already one way or another. Previously you are attending to/chasing some moving objects in the cinema screen, but now you are focusing on a stable object on the cinema screen, and yet there is still no clarity on what the screen is. Attention simply amplifies a particular object of awareness - attention is not the same as awareness, attention is a focused thought form, while awareness simply awares everything without choice. The question that needs to be asked is, to whom is attention happening, without which there can be no attention? And further: when you are paying attention to your breathe, what is it that choicelessly hears the sound of bird chirping even without you intending to do so? What is the screen in which all is occuring?

As Rupert Spira said to me (I asked him about distractions months ago):

This 'I' that we now consider ourselves to be seems to be distracted, to
believe such and such, to overlook Awareness and to enter a dream. However,
this 'I' is non-existent as such. A non-existent entity never does anything.
With this understanding, the 'I' is returned to its proper place, as
Awareness.

When the 'I' is returned to its proper place, then you are back at the naturally abiding Awareness. You realise you are not a limited self entity that can be distracted from, or even experience, Awareness, you are also not even attention (which is another contrived thought form), rather you ARE the natural, effortless, ordinary Awareness. You don't have to try to maintain the Awareness, there is just this recognition that it is there - as Adam says, Awareness is brightly aware as its natural state, there is not effort - no doing.

An Eternal Now SG

To focus attention on an object is fine at the beginning - in fact it will help develop good qualities like the Tranquil Calm that Thusness mentioned.

However this does not directly lead to the arising of insight into our nature. The question of identity must be resolved for wisdom into our pristine awareness to arise.

As I quoted from someone before.. Imagine a torch shining on a wall...The torch symbolises the SEEING, and the light which emanates from the torch and hits the wall symbolises the thoughts. The problem is that you are trying to find the torch, (ie: the SEEING), but you are looking for it on the wall, (ie: in the thoughts). Also, thoughts can happen thick and fast and can be quite erratic... so not only are you looking in the wrong place, but you are chasing a moving target. A mantra at least steadies the appearance of the thoughts. It's like steadying the light on the wall, so you have a better chance of tracing the beam back to its source, but never forget, only the torch (the SEEING) is the source. The mantra is nothing but a thought, an appearance that has no independent nature, repeated. However, as I have said, whilst a mantra can help on the so called 'search', it is not actually necessary. Knowledge is the DIRECT method.

No techniques are needed. The SEEING ( the ordinary everyday awareness ) does not need to do anything to BE, to exist. Any techniques can only be on the level of thought, and therefore are outside of the only reality which is the SEEING. The SEEING is NEVER not there, it is ALWAYS seeing the thoughts, no matter what they may be. It is always aware of everything, it cannot under any circumstances not be there, you can't lose it. So just BE IT. HAVE A SENSE OF IDENTITY WITH IT AND NOTHING ELSE. You ARE the torch !

And also, Zen Master Anzan Hoshin said:

simply focusing our attention on something else, say [counting] the breath or [focusing on] a mantra or a visualized image is exactly the same thing that we have been doing that has been confusing us in the first place, except that we are just going to learn how to do it better so that we can become even more thoroughly confused. Because all that we will have done is focus on one fragment of our experience. We will not understand what our experience in itself is, what our life in itself is, or who we are because the most fundamental question, of course, is what is it that is experiencing experience? What is it that is aware?

wisdomeye SG

Hi AEN,

From POV of perfected realisation, awareness is as u said. From POV of people on the path, that is not so. Still have fabrication or conceptual stain. That's how i see it.

An Eternal Now SG

Hi AEN,

From POV of perfected realisation, awareness is as u said. From POV of people on the path, that is not so. Still have fabrication or conceptual stain. That's how i see it.

Not really, the realisation that "I am Awareness" is really just the beginning. I often said I am just beginner, not because out of humility but because it is a fact.

As Thusness said,

"Lastly this realization is not an end by itself, it is the beginning. If we are truthful and not over exaggerate and get carried away by this initial glimpse, we will realize that we do not gain liberation from this realization; contrary we suffer more after this realization. However it is a powerful condition that motivates a practitioner to embark on a spiritual journey in search of true freedom. :)"

Also... I notice that though Awareness is always present, there can be degrees of luminosity - clarity to it.

Actually Awareness is 100% fully present all the times, but if we keep engaging in conceptual activities, then awareness is not experienced as vivid as before.

Why is that so?

Because Awareness can only be experienced directly, without intermediary, it must be directly touched. That is why the importance of "not being distracted by having our attention divided by activities of mind"

The further we drop... the brighter and more intense the luminosity is experienced. Perception becomes vivid and 'intense' (not that things becomes more intense, but even ordinary things like eating and walking becomes vivid and clear and wonderful). That is why Adam says be 'brightly' aware. Sometimes I even get a mental image of my mind as brightly shining like a sun, even though the mental image is not the reality itself but the closest conceptual representation of the formless 'thing' that the mind can find.

It can be so intense that you will spontaneously smile, there may even be tears, at the sheer wonder of it. Friends may find you weird if you are walking with them. LOL

So why did Mahakashyapa smile at the twirling flower?

By the way... the letting go and the luminosity re-inforces each other: the more you let go, the more luminous perception is, and the more luminous perception is, the more willing you are to let go of the mind activities. Because it is so wonderful!

Perhaps this is what Thusness meant when he said years ago,

To drop the bondage/deep conditionings, the mind MUST realise that another way of 'knowing' is possible; an effortless, total sensing and experience of wholeness. Next the experiences of the joy, bliss and clarity of wholeness. Without the insight into the possiblity and the experience of the positive factors, the mind will not release itself from holding.

Even open pure and innocent inquiry is a deep conditioning. Makes the mind chatters incessantly. Every what, when, where and why by itself is a distancing from start. Freeing itself from such mode of inquiry aka 'knowing', the mind rests. The joy of this resting must be experienced for the 'willingness' to arise.

An Eternal Now SG

Hi AEN,

From POV of perfected realisation, awareness is as u said. From POV of people on the path, that is not so. Still have fabrication or conceptual stain. That's how i see it.

Btw, Awareness is equally present whether it is realised or not. Investigate and see if it is otherwise. In terms of Buddha Nature, there is no difference between a bee, a human, a Buddha.

If there is no awareness, you won't be reading these words now. Who is seeing?