Why didnt Buddha tell his disciples & Lay pple to be Vegan?

Rooney9 SG

When Devadatta told the Buddha to asks his disciples and lay followers to make it compulsory to be a vegetarian, why did the Buddha rejected it?

wisdomeye SG

not very sure. But i venture a guess.

The monks have to make begging rounds. So they can't pick and choose? I think this is the practical reason.

I think in this day and age, when alot of people who practice Buddhism dun beg and have choice and when it's easy to get vegetarian food, Buddha would have encouraged Vegetarian where possible. Exceptions are those whose health dun permit.

there is a video clip of a Buddhist master explaining about the change in Buddha's stance about vegetarianism. He said that at first Buddha permitted the three clean meats but then in a sutra said near his parinirvana, he again said that those who took meat were not his disciples. If I don't remember wrongly, the hinayana followers did not recognise some of these mahayana sutras as valid and so will not concede that Buddha said this. (i'd see if i can find this video clip, then post)

Anyway, just my opinion, no offense to anyone or any tradition.

wisdomeye SG

aforementioned video (in chinese language)

http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=329923&iid=4562522&cid=21

By Khenpo Tsultrim Lodro
(Khenpo = studied for many years on buddhist philosophy and graduated)

Rooney9 SG

I think in my humble opinion is food is just being food. we take food as necessity to survive and gain strength. taking meat or being a vegetarian should not distract the work of obtaining one's own salvation.

Rooney9 SG

not very sure. But i venture a guess.

The monks have to make begging rounds. So they can't pick and choose? I think this is the practical reason.

Anyway, just my opinion, no offense to anyone or any tradition.

"He said that at first Buddha permitted the three clean meats but then in a sutra said near his parinirvana, he again said that those who took meat were not his disciples".

I am not sure if he said this exactly, as it is too controversial if he said this himself. seemed to be contradicting.

Dawnfirstlight SG

During Buddha's time, food was hard to come by, thus it was out of no choice that monks accepted whatever was being offered. Even today, Tibetan monks are allowed to take meat because in Tibet, vegetables are hard to come by. It is because of Tibet's climate and there are difficulties in transporting the vegetables as it is a mountainous country.

Monks encourage us to be vegetarian because in Singapore we are lucky that there are plenty of choices. However, monks said if there are no vegetarian food around, we can always eat vegetables among the meat （肉边菜). Anyway Buddhism always talk about 随缘。Most importantly, don't waste food regardless of vegetarian or non-vegetarian food.

wisdomeye SG

Not being Vegetarian does build up karmic debts with the animals you eat because it hurts them alot. According to some masters, it affects the vows you are holding too because you are not supposed to hurt sentient beings after you have taken refuge and not to kill as part of the five precepts. Most of the time the meat bought is killed for the customers and i'm sure most of us know that, so does it fall into three pure meats?

Some people also say that many insects killed during planting vege too. But anyway, whether one eats meat or not, one will also eat vege right? So this argument quite weak.

This is a very difficult topic. I'm trying to be vegetarian and my health is quite affected. So i have this to consider. I really feel for the animals and would hate to be an indirect cause for such great pain. But if my health is too much affected, i may have to consider selfish path out. Trying to explore alternative nutrition paths. Many people can be vegetarian without affecting their healths.

SMB66X SG

Buddha can only tell a "hint" to us and need us to find out, and not to let us depend everything on the Buddha.

Rooney9 SG

thats the paradox isnt it. you need to balance with the fact that you need to eat food to sustain your life and energy to do the things you wish to accomplish. but taking meat doesnt take away or lessen your compassion isnt it. while being a bodhisattva, is it feasible for him to practise his perfections in many aeons all this while being a vegetarian and have never eaten meat before?

as for karmic debt to these poor animals, its even worse off in the animal kingdom when animals need to eat each other to survive. I think its impossible to stop the killing animals for their meat and skin or tusks, due to business, money, food and greed involved. its a supply and demand thingy. karmic debt is very heavy for people dealing, trading and killing of these poor animals for their meat, skin or dusks.

wisdomeye SG

The animals who have to eat each other to survive create alot of negative karma for themselves. Once one falls into the lower realms and reborns as a animal, it is likely to be a carnivorous animal due to our past habits of eating meat and this means we have to kill to survive. This creates the karma that locks us in the lower realms. Because having killed, we will have to repay the debt by being killed ourselves. We cycle in these lower rebirths and are unable to be easily released and come back into human realm. (all these also described by Khenpo Tsultrim Lodro in the video i attached above).

That's also why during animal liberation, one of the greatest thing is the recitation of prayers for the animals to be liberated from lower rebirths. Many people think that it is just the extension of the lifespan of the animal but actually the recitation of prayers, IMO, is much more important.

Even if i start to eat meat, i will definitely be very careful. For eg. dun eat many small animals (eg. ikan bilis), dun order animals to be killed, and dun eat on the holy days. And i will also put some time aside to recite prayers to dedicate for the lives i take. Karma never ever fails.

I once questioned a master why he eat meat, he said, they (meaning Tibetan Buddhists) eat meat, they eat meat from big animals like yak, cow etc., so many people can survive on one animal for long time, they also do prayers and dedications once a year for 49 days for all the animals they eat.

Nowadays, when we eat meat, like for eg, can of luncheon meat contains meat from so many animals, we have so many negative link with so many animals. I think it is so different from those tibetan masters. So anyway, even eating, just be discreet.

One master said, 'If we constantly create suffering for others then it is foolish to expect that we will be happy (in the long run).'

I believe this very much.

googoomuck SG

karmic debt is worse for you who have tries to become a monk to escape reservist training

Rooney9 SG

Vegetarianism
By Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda

One should not judge the purity or impurity of man simply by observing what he eats.

In the Amagandha Sutta, the Buddha said: <dir> <dir>

'Neither meat, nor fasting, nor nakedness,
Nor shaven heads, nor matted hair, nor dirt,
Nor rough skins, nor fire-worshipping,
Nor all the penances here in this world,
Nor hymns, nor oblation, nor sacrifice,
Nor feasts of the season,
Will purify a man overcome with doubt.'

Taking fish and meat by itself does not make a man become impure. A man makes himself impure by bigotry, deceit, envy, self-exaltation, disparagement and other evil intentions. Through his own evil thoughts and actions, man makes himself impure. There is no strict rule in Buddhism that the followers of the Buddha should not take fish and meat. The only advice given by the Buddha is that they should not be involved in killing intentionally or they should not ask others to kill any living being for them. However, those who take vegetable food and abstain from animal flesh are praiseworthy.

Though the Buddha did not advocate vegetarianism for the monks, He did advise the monks to avoid taking ten kinds of meat for their self respect and protection. They are: humans, elephants, horses, dogs, snakes, lions, tigers, leopards, bears hyenas. Some animals attack people when they smell the flesh of their own kind. (Vinaya Pitaka)

When the Buddha was asked to introduce vegetarianism amongst His disciples, the Buddha refused to do so. As Buddhism is a free religion, His advice was to leave the decision regarding vegetarianism to the individual disciple. It clearly shows that the Buddha had not considered this as a very important religious observance. The Buddha did not mention anything about vegetarianism for the lay Buddhists in His Teaching.

Jivaka Komarabhacca, the doctor, discussed this controversial issue with the Buddha: 'Lord, I have heard that animals are slaughtered on purpose for the recluse Gotama, and that the recluse Gotama knowingly eats the meat killed on purpose for him. Lord, do those who say animals are slaughtered on purpose for the recluse Gotama, and the recluse Gotama knowingly eats the meat killed on purpose for. Do they falsely accuse the Buddha? Or do they speak the truth? Are your declaration and supplementary declarations not thus subject to be ridiculed by others in any manner?'

'Jivaka, those who say: 'Animals are slaughtered on purpose for the recluse Gotama, and the recluse Gotama knowingly eats the meat killed on purpose for him', do not say according to what I have declared, and they falsely accuse me. Jivaka, I have declared that one should not make use of meat it is seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk. I allow the monks meat that is quite pure in three respects: if it is not seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk.' (Jivaka Sutta)

In certain countries, the followers of the Mahayana school of Buddhism are strict vegetarians. While appreciating their observance in the name of religion, we should like to point out that they should not condemn those who are not vegetarians. They must remember that there is no precept in the original Teachings of the Buddha that requires all Buddhists to be vegetarians. We must realize that Buddhism is known as the Middle Path. It is a liberal religion and the Buddha's advice was that it is not necessary to go to extremes to practise His Teachings.

Vegetarianism alone does not help a man to cultivate his humane qualities. There are kind, humble, polite and religious people amongst non-vegetarians. Therefore, one should not condone the statement that a pure, religious man must practise vegetarianism.

On the other hand, if anybody thinks that people cannot have a healthy life without taking fish and meat, it does not necessarily follow that they are correct since there are millions of pure vegetarians all over the world who are stronger and healthier than the meat-eaters.

People who criticize Buddhists who eat meat do not understand the Buddhist attitude towards food. A living being needs nourishment. We eat to live. As such a human being should supply his body with the food it needs to keep him healthy and to give him energy to work. However, as a result of increasing wealth, more and more people, especially in developed countries, eat simply to satisfy their palates. If one craves after any kind of food, or kills to satisfy his greed for meat, this is wrong. But if one eats without greed and without directly being involved in the act of killing but merely to sustain the physical body, he is practising self restraint.