Do buddhists entertain the idea they mght be delusional abou

AndrewPKYap SG

....about buddhist beliefs?

How do you know that your beliefs are true if you do not demand proofs and evidence for your beliefs?

Just because it is in the sutras? Just because someone claims it?

I like buddhist philosophy because one of the main ideas I gather from buddhism is that the world is an illusion and therefore people should know their own delusions.

Then I notice that buddhist themselves cling on to delusions from buddist beliefs.

Dawnfirstlight SG

Can you elaborate further on delusions from Buddhist beliefs, for example?

AndrewPKYap SG

Can you elaborate further on delusions from Buddhist beliefs, for example?

There is no need to be specific. Anything that you believe but you have no evidence to back it up. There were never any research done to prove or disprove the beliefs. It is impossible to prove or disprove the beliefs.

You just do it, believe it, practice it, because it is in the sutras, it is what the monk said, it has always been done.....

SevenEleven SG

I recommend that you read this first

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta

and if really have so time....the summary

http://www.shabkar.org/scripture/sutras/kalama_sutra.htm

AndrewPKYap SG

I recommend that you read this first

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta

and if really have so time....the summary

http://www.shabkar.org/scripture/sutras/kalama_sutra.htm

Kalama Sutra - Angutarra Nikaya 3.65

Teaching given by the Buddha given to the Kalama people:

Do not go by revelation;
Do not go by tradition;
Do not go by hearsay;
Do not go on the authority of sacred texts;
Do not go on the grounds of pure logic;
Do not go by a view that seems rational;
Do not go by reflecting on mere appearances;
Do not go along with a considered view because you agree with it;
Do not go along on the grounds that the person is competent;
Do not go along because [thinking] 'the recluse is our teacher'.

Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are unwholesome, these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; and when undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill, abandon them...
Kalamas, when you know for yourselves: These are wholesome; these things are not blameworthy; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness, having undertaken them, abide in them.

Exactly what I am trying to point out. Buddha teaches one thing and the disciples practices the opposite, clinging on to delusions just because the sutras say so, the monk say so, the temple say so, these are the traditions.... therefore we...

(delusions as in believing and doing things that are not proven and against logic and the laws of reality).

Can you show me any research done for example, showing that chanting is beneficial for the person and the person's family and what exactly are the benefits and what evidence to show that the benefits are real and not imagined?

annoy-you-must SG

I believed the Buddha never said the world is a illusion. In fact, the nature of our 'world' is such that it cannot be defined or explain by mere concepts.

But I do believe that a teaching or practice can only be beneficial or good if we've experienced it and find it to be beneficial towards us. Even so, our wisdom are limited in the sense that not even what we thought is beneficial could really be beneficial after all.

I personally don't believe in chanting. I believe in practicing in your daily life. I think it doesn't matter what words you chant, but as long as you recite a passage with enough conviction/faith/belief, you'll feel 'at peace'. It can be a Christian prayer or Muslim prayer or even a child's written composition.

Nevertheless, if the chanting does serve to bring a person's mind to calm down for the time being, that is a 'real' benefit isn't it?

SevenEleven SG

Kalama Sutra - Angutarra Nikaya 3.65

(delusions as in believing and doing things that are not proven and against logic and the laws of reality).

Chanting does create a positive vibration. It can only be felt by self. What do you think of those knocking on the wooden fish during chanting? To me, i feel that this is a form of concentration exercise, part of the "perfect concentration" in the eight fold path.

There are many medication for one illness, you will just have to find one that is most suitable for you. I do agree with some of the supertition in buddhism, so with the others too. some may be good others otherwise.

Take the example of burning joss paper and paper houses, paper dolls. This may not have been buddhist teaching but went it was introduced to replace the burying the live persons, I see the compassion in it.

Dawnfirstlight SG

Kalama Sutra - Angutarra Nikaya 3.65

(delusions as in believing and doing things that are not proven and against logic and the laws of reality).

It is just like someone tells me that this medicine will cure gastric. How do I prove that the medicine really works? I will only know if I take the medicine. Only then I can tell whether the person who told me is speaking the truth.

Sgdevilzz SG

It doesnt need to be scientifically proven.

Its a belief, what we believe in. We, buddhist, do not assume that buddha exist. We believe buddha exist. It doesnt need to be proven.

Are you a buddhist? Christian? or free-thinker?

lots of people said ghosts doesnt exist. proven? yes, you can see spiritual possession in temples or other places. You might think its been staged or faked. Well believe me, if seen it in my own eyes.

An Eternal Now SG

Chanting leads to calmness, absorption and samadhi. If you practice it you will know and you will certainly not treat it as a superstition.

Weychin SG

Hi Andrew PKYap, consider yourself blessed with a discriminating mind before you get involved in religion. Most, if not all are usually born in a home and community of a certain faith. Most of the time,before everybody take an interest in religion,everybody follows what is shown to them. Until the mind is aroused and awakens, everybody goes through the motion of religion, going to school,do things peer group do, going to work.

This a not a solely a Buddhist phenomenon, most do the same things, chanting the same slogans etc.

Weychin SG

I do chanting of sutras and mantras before I go to shamantha and vispashyana practice, it allows me to settle in before going into practice.

As hindsight, the agitation and restlessness which plagued me in my earlier years is very much diminished.

AndrewPKYap SG

Reading your posts, I realise that the "problem" is so huge I really do not know where to start.

One thing I get is that all the posts are subjective. The "try it and you will know it" "I have experienced it personally" variety. The Christians will similarly tell you "I have experienced the love of Jesus"

When you do that, when you are so subjective, you open yourself to delusions.

First of all, the human mind cannot be trusted.

I won't go into many details but just think:

1. You do not have perfect knowledge

2. You do not have perfect intelligence

3. You do not know what you do not know

4. You cannot see what you cannot see

So how to trust yourself and your experiences? How do you know that it is not your delusion? If you are not a dualistic person you will know that there is "more delusional" and "less delusional".

So while it is impossible not to be delusional (I know it might be hard for you to grasp the concept that everyone is definitely delusional, only more or less so, and it is hard for you to accept that people and you, are basically delusional, given the limitations of the human mind), you can be less delusional.

So whatever it is that you think and experienced, the first thing you do is to ask yourself: "How do I know it is not my delusion?"

xingg SG

hmm. i dont know too much about religions. its just way too complicated.

but i feel it is very much needed in all society, be it buddhism/christianism/hinduism/muslim. it acts as a moral compass that leads us when things seems unclear or when scientific research cannot prove anything. it gives us a sense of direction and motivates us to move on. it may be real, it may be fake. but all good religions are beneficial to the development of mankind.

and lastly, no religion is more superior than the other. if everyone learns to respect each other, conflicts will cease.

Dawnfirstlight SG

hmm. i dont know too much about religions. its just way too complicated.

and lastly, no religion is more superior than the other. if everyone learns to respect each other, conflicts will cease.

Hmm, religion is not just about moral education. One has to think where does your soul go to after death. Have a deeper thought on that. Any questions, come here to ask the experts like AEN, Weychin and Bohirici.

AndrewPKYap SG

You make a statement "Chanting does create a positive vibration." You do not bother to back it up and expect everyone to accept it. How do you know it is not simply a delusion on your part that "Chanting does create a positive vibration"?

Because you felt it, the "positive vibration"?

You need OBJECTIVE evidence and proofs that "Chanting does create a positive vibration" and not just assume it based on your feelings.

You might think that it is too much trouble to bother with objective evidence and proofs for something as innocent as chanting.

If you think that, then you have acquired a habit to think very carelessly.

You might not understand the implications of "careless thinking" and that is why you think careless thoughts. Something for you to think about: Thinking is what separates man from animals.

likeyou SG

Feel it yourself, dont need proof.

AndrewPKYap SG

I believed the Buddha never said the world is a illusion. In fact, the nature of our 'world' is such that it cannot be defined or explain by mere concepts.

Nevertheless, if the chanting does serve to bring a person's mind to calm down for the time being, that is a 'real' benefit isn't it?

Quote from wikipedia Reality in Buddhism:

Some views of reality in Buddhism are relevant to the issue of dependent origination and some to teachings beyond cause and effect. Examples are discussed below.

Different schools and traditions in Tibetan Buddhism give different explanations of the mechanism producing the illusion usually called "reality".^[2]^[3]

Unquote

Maybe your understanding of Buddhism is limited/faulty

AndrewPKYap SG

Exactly what the Christians tell you. Believe and accept Jesus and you will know that it is true. Why don't you? Why are you a Buddhist?

The human mind is delusional in nature. You need to verify and validate your assumptions.

How do you know that it is the medicine that cured you and not your body naturally cured itself?

Therefore, you need to read up on the research done on the medicine. Therefore you need objective verification and evidence of your beliefs.

AndrewPKYap SG

Feel it yourself, dont need proof.

Maybe you should join all those people in IMH. They all feel it, believe it and they do not need any proof.