Do buddhists entertain the idea they mght be delusional abou

last SG · 2009-12-31T11:42:39+00:00

I believed the Buddha never said the world is a illusion. In fact, the nature of our 'world' is such that it cannot be defined or explain by mere concepts.Bu...

Spnw07 SG

Any form of greed, hatred, ignorace is misdirected compassion since it is compassion filtered through the egoic separation into subject and object:

I think you missed my point. How can greed, hatred and ignorance be considered as compassion in the first place, only misdirected?

If I'm stabbing someone, how is that compassion misdirected? It's simply cruelty and hatred...

An Eternal Now SG

It seems you are talking about the Buddha bearing his own karma, but not really about him bearing the karma of others, unlike the example you gave about your Taiwanese teacher.

Again it is not easy for anyone to know whether their karma has been really going on the path of reduction. Can it be that it's not reduction that we experience but merely a natural expiration of bad karma?

It is very obvious. For example, if you have an uncurable terminal illness and it was suddenly cured, then obviously something miraculous happen. If the doctors say you are paralyzed for life and yet you suddenly heal yourself totally within a short period of time, then certainly something miraculous happened. Etc.

Spnw07 SG

That something miraculous, can it be a mere expiration of bad karma, followed by a quick ripening of good karma?

geis SG

just wanna share some material ive read some time ago that seems to be related to this current discussion.

http://www.buddhanet.net/l3lesson.htm

everything that a person say and do are brought about by the intepretation of all conditions surrounding the person as well as the perception of the conditions with relation to 'me', bringing about a neverending interplay of conditions which are again perceived by the person with relation to 'me'. this creates an ongoing sequence of events which may or may not be linked directly.

the conditions that arises with birth (karma) then sets off a new chain reaction which is interconnected with those conditions that arise from the surroundings. reflecting deeper its just one big vibration thats going on and on.

miracles do happen, and its systematic, never by chance.

of cos dun take it from me, its probably some delusions that im having :D

geis SG

Any form of greed, hatred, ignorace is misdirected compassion since it is compassion filtered through the egoic separation into subject and object:

reminds me of a quote from dr zimbardo in his book the lucifer effect.

we are less rational than we are adept in rationalizing

An Eternal Now SG

I think you missed my point. How can greed, hatred and ignorance be considered as compassion in the first place, only misdirected?

If I'm stabbing someone, how is that compassion misdirected? It's simply cruelty and hatred...

The compassion to end suffering is misdirected when we imagine a split between the subject and the object, in which the object must either be get hold of by the subject or gotten rid of by the subject. This gap between subject and object is what is painful. But somehow the person imagines that to remove the gap one must 'get over there' or 'away from over there', in other words the subject must manipulate the objective pole in order to end suffering. But this dualistic relationship is merely fabricated and is what is causing the suffering in the first place. This is the meaning of the 'three poisons'.

Stabbing someone is also a result of a subject and object split, the compassion is in trying to end the suffering he is experiencing (for example he thinks that the other person is the cause of his suffering), but misdirected because he is creating suffering for himself by imagining there is this subject and object split, and that the subjective pole must manipulate the objective pole.

bohiruci SG

That something miraculous, can it be a mere expiration of bad karma, followed by a quick ripening of good karma?

Dear spwn07 ,

based on the freewill of discussion

, i feel that you are on the academic side of looking at things happen .I wont see thats correct enough ,because its looking at things without considering the 3 periods of time (past , present ,future )

i wont think likewise for what AEN have explained ,as Realised ppl will know the exact cause .

Next , you may ask .Why wont Buddha relieve us of our sufferings ?

the problem is that is compassion without wisdom .

Sufferings is self-inflicted and self guided .Without realising the Problem,then there is no need for solutions

An Eternal Now SG

That something miraculous, can it be a mere expiration of bad karma, followed by a quick ripening of good karma?

Perhaps, but the good karma comes in the form of meeting someone wise and experienced. Otherwise, absent of an enlightened master who can heal and guide the person on the right path, there is no way diseases such as those can 'miraculously heal'. The practitioner must also sincerely practice the dharma himself, of course.

Herzog_Zwei SG

Dear spwn07 ,

based on the freewill of discussion

i wont think likewise for what AEN have explained ,as Realised ppl will know the exact cause .

Next , you may ask .Why wont Buddha relieve us of our sufferings ?

the problem is that is compassion without wisdom .

Sufferings is self-inflicted and self guided .Without realising the Problem,then there is no need for solutions

Fake exact cause =/= true case.

Weychin SG

There are things which are not necessarily criminal, but still cause harm to others. Having affairs is not a crime by law, but recognised by law to be a good legal basis for divorce.

What is wholesome and unwholesome in various real-life scenarios is still vague to me, that is why I'm going into specifics.

I'm asking about examples of misdirected compassion which are not necessarily criminal in nature, and or may look trivial and insignificant to most...

And furthermore, the examples you gave suggest more strongly the nature of the doer being totally uncompassionate at all, rather than misdirected compassion.

For example, forcing people to do things when they don't want to or can't do at the moment, by constantly harping, suggesting in various ways, on the serious cumulative effects of their karma if they don't change...

That to me is misdirected compassion.

Misdisdirected compassion, has two components, original intent and course of action:-

Few examples:-

Small boy sees fish in fishtank, see fishfood, says fish is hungry, proceeds to empty the contents into fishtank.

Proponent argues for pro life, good, abortion, bad,kills life. Put up protest, escalates to killings abortion doctor!

The lost generation of Australia, forcible schooling Native Americans, denial to speak native language, customs, forced to learn the "western ways and gods" as they are godless savages. Bad in modern context, acceptable,back then, acceptable, maybe noble.

Democracy and western values(Christianity?) is good, proceeds to send troops to a sovereign country in a"crusade".

Allah, Creator of the world is good,Islam is good, the rest is infidels, immoral, decadent. Proceeds to send suicide bombers, in a"Holy jihad", proceeds to up everybody to bits, being a Muslim is no immunity either!

Everybody starts with the noblest intentions!

So if a person choose to practise compassion, it should from the point of selflessness, in chanting and visualisation practice, one would visualise uponthe breath intake, drawing all the bad karma, with emanation of rays of good karma to all illuminate and liberate all sentients beings.

Weychin SG

Compassion arises naturally in regards to appearances? Why? If appearances of suffering are like illusions, then they will also disappear like illusions without our intervention or regardless of how we feel.

Do we bother to save the morning dew that gets evaporated when the sun comes out?

Do we bother to save the zebra we see getting chased by a lion?

Physical and mental pain or discomfort are two separate things? I thought they are inter-connected.

Is having a headache or migraine something physical or mental? There are no specific external body parts involved.

When I'm hungry, I feel weak. Is that physical or mental? Can I wish or will away hunger? When I am having a fever, I feel hot and uncomfortable. When I am diagnosed with kidney failure and undergo daily dialysis (which is freaking uncomfortable), can I wish or will away sickness?

If there is no sufferer apart from suffering, why do Bodhisattvas need to have compassion for beings? There should be NO beings to feel or develop compassion for, isn't it?

If suffering is impermanent, insubstantial, and empty, then is compassion impermanent, insubstantial and empty too?

There a sensation of pain registered by the mind and mental anguish

Also physical pain can be blocked, by the adrenalin rush in times of danger, also a person goes into shock with extreme trauma,eg. broken bones.

A martial artist can block pain using chi, the blood withdraws from peripheral into the core, leaving the skin with a cold clammy sensation. The pain will return later, unfortunately, same with spiritual possessions with mediums and "shen da" spiritual kungfu. Chi can also be to speed up healing.

Illnessis also called dis-ease, manifested as discomfort. The difference is how one react to discomfort, some will moan and groan"I want to die already". We instinctively give words of comfort although it will not cure the ailment, we comfort to make the person feel and deal with the discomfort better.

The physical pain never goes, but mental agitation is lessen.

Ever missed or skipped a meal even though you are hungry, if preoccupied, hunger pangs usually goes away after a while. In an affluent world, we are usually not starving, yes, we feel do hungry, but is usually the overreaction to hunger, the gorging of food. Constant craving is usually symptomatic of something else!

Spnw07 SG

Dear spwn07 ,

based on the freewill of discussion

i wont think likewise for what AEN have explained ,as Realised ppl will know the exact cause .

Next , you may ask .Why wont Buddha relieve us of our sufferings ?

the problem is that is compassion without wisdom .

Sufferings is self-inflicted and self guided .Without realising the Problem,then there is no need for solutions

There are some Buddhist concepts that say 3 periods of time are illusions of the deluded mind. And what's academic and non-academic in your view? Please elaborate.

Spnw07 SG

The explanation you gave for the stabbing example assumes that the doer is suffering. But he could be enjoying the act of killing, without thinking that the other person is the cause of his suffering.

Spnw07 SG

Misdisdirected compassion, has two components, original intent and course of action:-

Few examples:-

Small boy sees fish in fishtank, see fishfood, says fish is hungry, proceeds to empty the contents into fishtank.

Proponent argues for pro life, good, abortion, bad,kills life. Put up protest, escalates to killings abortion doctor!

Democracy and western values(Christianity?) is good, proceeds to send troops to a sovereign country in a"crusade".

Everybody starts with the noblest intentions!

I beg to differ that everybody starts with the noblest intentions. But I thank you for giving those examples.

The problem is that everybody would want to think they have started from the point of selflessness, and is therefore practising compassion.

Spnw07 SG

There a sensation of pain registered by the mind and mental anguish

Also physical pain can be blocked, by the adrenalin rush in times of danger, also a person goes into shock with extreme trauma,eg. broken bones.

The physical pain never goes, but mental agitation is lessen.

If we are preoccupied, hunger pangs do usually go away after a while. However how long can we continue to keep ourselves preoccupied without having to feel hungry again?

Example, people who are usually preoccupied will find that after some time, hunger does not trouble them, but in the long term they may develop gastric pains.

So using mental training to suppress hunger or pain isn't practical?

bohiruci SG

There are some Buddhist concepts that say 3 periods of time are illusions of the deluded mind. And what's academic and non-academic in your view? Please elaborate.

i feel that you are on the academic side of looking at things happen .I wont see thats correct enough ,because its looking at things without considering the 3 periods of time (past , present ,future )

Please look carefully what i posted and what you translate is a different thing.

I am saying that you could have seen the issue from a academic point of view.that no such thing as miracles and totally chronological and reflexive

I say ,

unless you have developed meditative power to ascertain the true cause of things

else you could be just plain guessing .

And if you are the Buddha ,would you want to take the sufferings of the sentient beings ?

Do you feel as a Buddha ,sufferings is inherent of this existence and doing so only bring about more clinging for sufferings .

Who to relieve their sufferings ? is it the ten disciples ? is it the deva who is immediately going to plunge to earth after the end of its existence in heaven ?

Maybe you can tell me why u misread my reply to you .thanks

Weychin SG

I beg to differ that everybody starts with the noblest intentions. But I thank you for giving those examples.

The problem is that everybody would want to think they have started from the point of selflessness, and is therefore practising compassion.

Ever heard the phrase"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

The problem lies not from where they started, but their interpretations of "good" and "bad". Somewhere down the way, it becomes "good"vs "bad".

One way of reconciling, is attack the issue, not the person.

Another thing, when I was younger, releasing animals"fan shen" is good, now with more awareness, I realise it may be bad, not only for the animals released but also the fauna and flora in the environment it is released. Having said that, I still think releasing is good, only more thought have to be put into it. In other words, in a helpful,positive manner!

Weychin SG

There a sensation of pain registered by the mind and mental anguish

Also physical pain can be blocked, by the adrenalin rush in times of danger, also a person goes into shock with extreme trauma,eg. broken bones.

The physical pain never goes, but mental agitation is lessen.

Another thing I forgot to add is the placebo effect, it show the body can heal itself, although not in all cases!

Spnw07 SG

Please look carefully what i posted and what you translate is a different thing.

I am saying that you could have seen the issue from a academic point of view.that no such thing as miracles and totally chronological and reflexive

I say ,

unless you have developed meditative power to ascertain the true cause of things

else you could be just plain guessing .

And if you are the Buddha ,would you want to take the sufferings of the sentient beings ?

Do you feel as a Buddha ,sufferings is inherent of this existence and doing so only bring about more clinging for sufferings .

Who to relieve their sufferings ? is it the ten disciples ? is it the deva who is immediately going to plunge to earth after the end of its existence in heaven ?

Maybe you can tell me why u misread my reply to you .thanks

I'm afraid I can't understand what you are trying to say here. But thanks for clarifying anyway.

An Eternal Now SG

I don't think anyone will kill for fun unless they are mentally deranged or psychotic. Any kind of seeking, whether it is to seek for money, fame, or just the thrill of killing people, implies a seeker/sought, subject/object, duality. Because of their apparent sense of lack in their life, they want to get rid of it by resorting to sick things to derive pleasure. The imagined gap between a perceiving subject and a perceived pleasurable sensation (object) causes the seeking, and also is the root cause of suffering. In any case such behavior falls under "Pain and pleasure, suffering and satisfaction always seem to be “over there.” Thus, when pleasant sensations arise, there is a constant, compassionate, deluded attempt to get over there to the other side of the imagined split. This is fundamental attraction. "

When they derive pleasure from killing others, that is also a form of attachment which is very perverted in nature.

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